Gods and Jobs

[Anonymoose]

The black mage argument is just silly. Black mages ARE NOT ELEMENTALISTS. Unless you think that spells like poison, sleep, demi, toad, pig, death, etc are elemental somehow. The reason for having so many elemental spells in their repetoire is that elemental magic has been the primary type of spell damage throughout the series.

Also, if you're still going to make that argument, you can't do so while completely ignoring the fact that con also gets all of the 'traditional white mage spells' like the various cures and buffs.

The main issue is that people need to quit trying to pigeonhole conj and thm into white/black mages. Neither class was divided originally along those lines, and you can make a case for either class going either way. Personally, I think SE should just make it so that getting to level 30 in either class unlocks both.

You know those moments where you have that rush of excitement like, THANK GOD; SOMEONE GETS IT. The only problem now that we can't throw out those facts and call it a day. It's gonna happen: one IS going WHM and one IS going BLM. And while we could wait and sit around and see what happens... where's the fun in that?

So we come here and speculate, and then people show up who have opinions that are different than ours (and that's pretty frustrating), but then their opinions (that are already bad for being DIFFERENT than ours) also turn out to be based on FLIMSIER evidence than ours, which is just like SADFJASELIRJEAAAAAAARRAHARHAHRRRR. RAAAAAGE. And then you end up on page five yelling at people you don't know through a virtual anonymous medium while getting legitimately angry for reasons that should make you ashamed but don't. Rinse repeat!

[grandm]

You know those moments where you have that rush of excitement like, THANK GOD; SOMEONE GETS IT. The only problem now that we can't throw out those facts and call it a day. It's gonna happen: one IS going WHM and one IS going BLM. And while we could wait and sit around and see what happens... where's the fun in that?

So we come here and speculate, and then people show up who have opinions that are different than ours (and that's pretty frustrating), but then their opinions (that are already bad for being DIFFERENT than ours) also turn out to be based on FLIMSIER evidence than ours, which is just like SADFJASELIRJEAAAAAAARRAHARHAHRRRR. RAAAAAGE. And then you end up on page five yelling at people you don't know through a virtual anonymous medium while getting legitimately angry for reasons that should make you ashamed but don't. Rinse repeat!

lol so funny. but anyway least i now know the 12 and the primals are different. and i still think in 1.20 one caster will get holy and the other will get ultima. i don't think any will lose all there cure or all there nukes, as this will destroy there solo play

i also think my opinion is better than yours con for black :P lol

[Anonymoose]

i also think my opinion is better than yours con for black :P lol

I was saving this one for just in case the CNJ for BLM people cornered my other points (Buff v. Debuff, Benevolent v. Self-destructive, Radiance v. Damnation), but the thread is slowing down and there seems to be a SLIGHT tilt towards the mechanic/current-direction approach (CNJ=WHM) than the lore/history approach (CNJ=BLM) - so I guess I'll just go ahead and say it now:

So, if we restrict our search for evidence to changes we've seen to THM and CNJ since Team Yoshida completed their road map to 2.0:
The massive buffs to THM's offensive magic power were to prepare it for WHM?
And the overhaul to CNJ's healing/raising system were to prepare it for BLM?

/smugness

[Answa]

I was saving this one for just in case the CNJ for BLM people cornered my other points (Buff v. Debuff, Benevolent v. Self-destructive, Radiance v. Damnation), but the thread is slowing down and there seems to be a SLIGHT tilt towards the mechanic/current-direction approach (CNJ=WHM) than the lore/history approach (CNJ=BLM) - so I guess I'll just go ahead and say it now:

So, if we restrict our search for evidence to changes we've seen to THM and CNJ since Team Yoshida completed their road map to 2.0:
The massive buffs to THM's offensive magic power were to prepare it for WHM?
And the overhaul to CNJ's healing/raising system were to prepare it for BLM?

/smugness

But, good sir, we've already addressed the inclusion of so many healing spells to CNJ. We already had Cure, etc. Why change it suddenly before the revamp? We're getting a good month+ to prepare ourselves mentally for a surprise concerning the revamps that are happening. This is the time to change the classes drastically.

[Jim]

Ok Cnj got curaga, and curaga 2, while thm doesn't have any aoe healing, not to mention that cnj has most buffs and debuffs, thm has spells like poison and other asorted spells so we already have a blurry vision of which oone get the jobs buf SE has suprised us so many times well who knows. Lore would have it thought that thm is wht and cnj is blm.

[Anonymoose]

But ... but... the changes for 1.20 were PLANNED BEFORE 1.19, just not EXECUTED. Their road map is long term and in-depth. Knowing FULL WELL what was planned from at least 1.18 through at least March 2013, why would they purposely flesh both classes out in specific directions for two patches with the intention of (AFTER stabilizing them) BOOM... swapping them?

That's not just nonsensical, it's terrible management and public relations. Yoshida's a lot better at this than that, I'd think. Am I missing something?

[Answa]

But ... but... the changes for 1.20 were PLANNED BEFORE 1.19, just not EXECUTED. Their road map is long term and in-depth. Knowing FULL WELL what was planned from at least 1.18 through at least March 2013, why would they purposely flesh both classes out in specific directions for two patches with the intention of (AFTER stabilizing them) BOOM... swapping them?

That's not just nonsensical, it's terrible management and public relations. Yoshida's a lot better at this than that, I'd think. Am I missing something?

Lore.

/10char

[Anonymoose]

Lore.

/10char

No offense or anything, I mean this genuinely, not antagonistically...but... seriously? All of the contrary evidence and you're certain that THM=WHM and CNJ=BLM and they're going to reverse several patches worth of direction that they would have, if you are correct, purposely undertaken for the express purpose of going back on... because of a few vague references in the lore?

I mean... none of that's changed lately. Just putting every single story about Eorzea That Was on the back burner while the moon crashes into the planet. NBD, business as usual.

I mean, sure, the guide NPCs from the intro (Thancred, Y'shtola, ... Lalafell) have totally different roles, and the Empire's bad guys now have ENTIRELY different goals than they used to, and entirely new storylines are coming in for jobs, and the primals are related to the grand companies, and most canopy content has become quick instanced raids based on post-team-switch community data collection...

But that doesn't give any hint that the lore isn't cemented to the foundation and completely unchangeable, even if the core concept of the game was changed... surely, a few loose free associations (THM is about death so it must be about life by default because there's a branch sect nobody talks to with no bearing on the story whatsoever off in the mountains where you'd never see them unless you looked so obviously it's a white mage) can't be changed.

I'm just... so... confused @.@

[Inaaca]

No offense or anything, I mean this genuinely, not antagonistically...but... seriously? All of the contrary evidence and you're certain that THM=WHM and CNJ=BLM and they're going to reverse several patches worth of direction that they would have, if you are correct, purposely undertaken for the express purpose of going back on... because of a few vague references in the lore?

Because... none of that's changed lately. Just putting every single story about Eorzea That Was on the back burner while the moon crashes into the planet. NBD, business as usual.

There's only one patch I can recall to memory that would support WHM going to CNJ and it would be where they gave Conjurer additional exclusivity when it came to cure and raise spells. However, you have to remember that this was a temporary fix in response to player's complaints toward class identification, and has little bearing on the big, more thorough, revamp they've been planning in preparation for jobs.

SE has always placed a very high importance on the meaning of lore and story, and FFXIV is no different. For those that pay attention to such matters, the relation to lore and classes here is much more than a few vague references, as I'll get to in a moment.

I mean, sure the guide NPCs from the intro (Thancred, Y'shtola, ... Lalafell) have totally different roles, and the Empire's bad guys now have ENTIRELY different goals than they used to, and entirely new storylines are coming in for jobs, and the primals are related to the grand companies, and most canopy content has become quick instanced raids based on post-team-switch community data collection...

No one had a clear idea as to what the guide NPCs intentions were in the first place, so what makes you so certain that their purposes have been drastically altered? The same goes for the Empire, their intentions were (and still are) rather vague. It's only natural that these major aspects and characters will play a role in both new and old events.

Primals aren't related to the Grand Companies at all. The Grand Companies exist as the City-states' response to all of the threats facing Eorzea. This includes the Empire, the beastmen, the Primals, and most importantly, the looming 7th Umbral Era.

But that doesn't give any hint that the lore isn't cemented to the foundation and completely unchangeable, even if the core concept of the game was changed... surely, a few loose free associations (THM is about death so it must be about life by default because there's a branch sect nobody talks to with no bearing on the story whatsoever off in the mountains where you'd never see them unless you looked so obviously it's a white mage) can't be changed.

Thaumaturges worship the god, Nald'Thal. Nald'Thal is a joint representations of Nald and Thal, the gods of life and death. Both of the temples of Nald and Thal are physically present within the walls of Ul'dah, and available for you to visit at anytime.

In essence, Thaumaturges themselves ARE a branch sect under Nald'Thal. Their guild is physically present in the temple of Thal, the god of death. White Mages would, then, be with the opposite sect of Nald, providing the balance between life and death.

I just completed the level 36 guild quest for Conjurer, and I've never been more certain that they will get Black Mage as a job. According to the guild, Conjurers and the extension of nature's 6 elements (iconic of Final Fantasy's Black Mages) are one and the same. Conjurers and the elements in the Twelveswood are entwined so deeply in lore (including much of Gridania's history and culture) that it would be difficult to separate them at this stage without needless difficulty.



When it really comes right down to it, changing abilities around (which I'll remind you has already been confirmed to happen as early as 1.20), is much simpler than changing lore around.

This is because lore isn't just a text bubble to read, and in particular it plays a role in how quests have been built, what you do in them, and what happens as a result. Changing one paragraph of lore can easily have a snowball effect on lore in the rest of the game, as these things usually tie together and influence each other.

Abilities, on the other hand, are more easily changed as they don't relate much to other game elements besides gameplay within the altered class. And considering that we're getting a complete ability revamp anyways, I don't see why you think lore will be reformed to fit the abilities we have now.

[grandm]

But ... but... the changes for 1.20 were PLANNED BEFORE 1.19, just not EXECUTED. Their road map is long term and in-depth. Knowing FULL WELL what was planned from at least 1.18 through at least March 2013, why would they purposely flesh both classes out in specific directions for two patches with the intention of (AFTER stabilizing them) BOOM... swapping them?

That's not just nonsensical, it's terrible management and public relations. Yoshida's a lot better at this than that, I'd think. Am I missing something?

they did it, to confuse. to keep their master plan secret till the very last minute. i noticed yoshi-p loves to keep us guessing. giveing us little bits, just enough to set us off, with "what if this happens" or "i bet their going to do this now"