To those saying queue times will even out...

[Dyvid]

[CosmicKirby]

DPS jobs were the roles in need in DF at HW launch. Some months after it not anymore.


Some months after SB the DF queue will be normal again.
Normal mean: 1 sec queue for tank, 20 sec queue for healer and 10-30 minutes queue for DPS

My optimistic estimate, is that by the time it 'levels out' DPS queues are gonna be a firm 20-30 minute for a pop. No more random fast 10 minute or less ones.

[Ibi]

That all makes sense but I didn't compare DRK and AST to NIN. I'm pointing out that they're expecting no major change to player population in the DPS role because in the near identical circumstances of 3.0, we did not see any major change to the player population for tank and healer.

It's not near-identical circumstances to 3.0 though. That's the whole point.

3.0 added a new job to every role, so anyone interested in simply trying a new job had the option to stick with their existed role. 4.0 is adding two DPS jobs only, so that option does not exist.

3.0's only job with an established history in the Final Fantasy franchise was Dark Knight. Dark Knight was also a highly demanded addition to the game, so of the three additions it was the one most likely to get someone who didn't traditionally try a tank to give it a shot. 4.0 is adding two jobs that have both been present in many games in the franchise and were both highly demanded additions to the game. It seems much more likely that someone who primarily plays a tank or healer is going to try out samurai or red mage than it was that they'd have tried out machinist.

[Leonus]

Nah fam, If they made Sam a tank..... ugh.

[Venjenz]

It's like this in any MMO with queued dungeon group finder tools. Look at the player breakdown by class in any game, and it's 15-20% tank, 15-20% heals, and 60-70% DPS. It's the meta of tanking and heals that drives people to play DPS, not the number of available classes. Queues will be basically the same, because very few people are at "all jobs at 60" and even those that are have preferred mains they'll get to 70 first before they do new/shiny with RDM and SAM.

[Claire_Pendragon]

It's like this in any MMO with queued dungeon group finder tools. Look at the player breakdown by class in any game, and it's 15-20% tank, 15-20% heals, and 60-70% DPS. It's the meta of tanking and heals that drives people to play DPS, not the number of available classes. Queues will be basically the same, because very few people are at "all jobs at 60" and even those that are have preferred mains they'll get to 70 first before they do new/shiny with RDM and SAM.

While Im not quite disagreeing with you, I would also like to point out that in almost every case, the play style of tanks and healers is almost never diverse enough to allow more people into the roles. Where as DPS usually have enough diverse options that someone always likes at least one of them. (But even then sometimes exceptions happen, like 3.0, when all DPS pretty much were given some overlap in almost every possible way to DPS, causing ppl to be turned off of DPSing who didnt like certain things. On top of that, we actually lost playstyles.)

[Venjenz]

While Im not quite disagreeing with you, I would also like to point out that in almost every case, the play style of tanks and healers is almost never diverse enough to allow more people into the roles. Where as DPS usually have enough diverse options that someone always likes at least one of them. (But even then sometimes exceptions happen, like 3.0, when all DPS pretty much were given some overlap in almost every possible way to DPS, causing ppl to be turned off of DPSing who didnt like certain things. On top of that, we actually lost playstyles.)

No debate here, but even with "diverse" tanking and healing styles, we are talking about mitigation tank, dodge tank, AE tank, big boss single target tank, etc. Still the same basic "get aggro, hold aggro, don't stand in fire, point boss away from group, lather, rinse, repeat" mechanic of MMO tanking. The different flavors are just aesthetics more than anything else. Same for heals. You can have shield heals, big/efficient single heals, AE heals and HoTs. End of the day, you make party dmg go away and keep people vertical.

What drives people away from these two roles is not aesthetic, it is the expectation/pressure of the blame meta. Make a tank or heal the coolest, most pimp-tastic class in the history of RPGs, and 60-70% of the playerbase won't want to play them because of the way the blame meta works. FF14 didn't invent that meta btw, it's an inherent part of grouping in MMOs generally. And ironically, DPS are generally harder to play optimally than either tank or heals in most dungeon/trial content. Funny how it works, but that's what it is.

[Claire_Pendragon]

What drives people away is the expectation/pressure of the blame meta. Make a tank or heal the coolest, most pimp-tastic class in the history of RPGs, and 60-70% of the playerbase won't want to play them because of the way the blame meta works. FF14 didn't invent that meta btw, it's an inherent part of grouping in MMOs generally. And ironically, DPS are generally harder to play optimally than either tank or heals in most dungeon/trial content. Funny how it works, but that's what it is.

This is where I feel the diversity of playstyles could change this slightly. (Technically Id do more, including change how DPS play, but thats another argument)
A player who doesnt want the stress to hold hate, but doesnt mind mitigation, might like a tank thats designed around ease of threat (more so than already) and difficulty of survival.
A player may also like the reverse, ease of survival, and a challenge to hold hate.
(And I made another thread where one playstyle can pretty much play a DPS, and have almost none of the responsibility of tanking, but give that responsibility to the rest of the group. We all know someone who doesnt mind getting quick queues, even if it annoys the rest of the team, just to keep DPSing in a tank queue, and being just as effective. Or simply slap the threat/mitigation to a pet job, and your DPS rotation enhances the pets performance, so all u have to do, is keep ur DPS up.)

The only one I have had an issue trying to work out has been healer, which if we wanted DPS players to play, you could argue a easier version of SCH, with a harder DPS rotation, would most likely be the best way to do it. Similar to what I said about tanking with a pet. Though since SCH is our healer with a pet, this most likely would never come to be.

[Dameron]

If you're so afraid that the DPS queues will become unbearable, then set the right example by leveling as a tank or healer instead.

[Dualgunner]

It's not near-identical circumstances to 3.0 though. That's the whole point.

They're both start-of-expac job releases, regardless of role.

3.0 added a new job to every role, so anyone interested in simply trying a new job had the option to stick with their existed role. 4.0 is adding two DPS jobs only, so that option does not exist.

Yet if I wanted to keep playing a melee dps I was still stuck with Monk, Dragoon, and Ninja at 3.0.

3.0's only job with an established history in the Final Fantasy franchise was Dark Knight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsxBnkkNf64
http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Machinist_(job)

I'll concede neither were very well demanded but all three have established history in the franchise.

Dark Knight was also a highly demanded addition to the game, so of the three additions it was the one most likely to get someone who didn't traditionally try a tank to give it a shot.

And then lots of people gave it a shot. A ton, even, to the point where tank queues were bogged down. But that's not the case anymore...because people eventually went back to the roles they liked to play best anyway. As of this moment there is no data in game to suggest SAM and RDM will be entirely different. 4.0 will provide that data once and for all.

4.0 is adding two jobs that have both been present in many games in the franchise and were both highly demanded additions to the game. It seems much more likely that someone who primarily plays a tank or healer is going to try out samurai or red mage than it was that they'd have tried out machinist.

Key words right there. A lot of people tried out Dark Knight too.