We're all DDs now >.>

[KisaiTenshi]

This is a static though right? If the tag for the other pray (not the person you trade it to) is random then I think that is asking too much from PF, but after tagged for the first time it is the same person?

KisaiTenshi, do you really lack the ability to see who is doing poor DPS? I mean if you have a lot of experience you learn how fast things can die, what jobs do what, etc.

This thread is a broken record. If the DPS players are doing poorly, you will either run out of mana from the boss taking too long without even DPS'ing yourself, or they will take a dirt nap immediately after being resurrected from standing in an AOE and not get resurrected again until after the fight.

This gawd awful raider mentality that if you're not constantly casting medica II, you're not healing anyone, raiders keep ignoring the mechanics of the regular content.

Maybe y'all need to go buy level 49 crafted gear and go play the level 50 dungeons again and remember how to actually play the mechanics~. Don't y'all remember threads like this~?

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ittle-too-hard
(That's from 2013)

Like it's really funny how I can play WHM just fine with Cure I/II as primary, and other heals as discretionary in the duty finder content, exactly the way Yoshi-P seems to think the WHM is supposed to work. How many times do I have to keep reviving people? That DPS isn't going to survive standing in 5 overlapping AOE's no matter what you cast on them. That tank that decides to speed run and gather 3 consecutive groups of mobs, that I can deal with too, and would prefer that over being talked down to by other players who think they are too cool to follow the mechanics.

But you raiders, won't let go of your groupthink on this "Tanks and Healers must DPS at every opportunity or you're lazy." You've just been told that you're playing the game wrong by Yoshi-P, and the argument you have is "That isn't how people play it" when in fact people do. Bad advice spreads like the plague. Have you noticed I haven't once advocated that the way I play it is the way you MUST play it? No.

Grow up and be open minded that some of us want to play the game without being told by players how to play the game, at all. If your reaction to not finishing a boss 10 seconds faster is "you must dps or kick" then you're the one with toxic attitude, not the healer.

You are told up front that someone is "new" to the duty, that is your cue to volunteer what is best to do with the mechanics. Some people, like myself, prefer to play them blind, and hopefully let the Tank describe how they want to play it rather than assume j-random-youtuber/wiki is up to date.

But this toxic attitude is what results in "watch a video or kick" as well. That has never changed.

The discussion we should be having is why we tolerate this childish entitlement attitude from speedrunning/raiders at all. The raiders are not helping their case by being rude to me, or others throughout the thread or in the game. The raiders are the one using the unauthorized tools with impunity and even brag about it. So, no. There is no way you know how much damage you or any other party member is doing individually without violating the ToS in real time.

It's time to for SE to take back that message about "kicking for playstyle" being valid, and suspending accounts that kick players without being AFK/Offline.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ically-allowed

That is where playstyle kick reason apparently started BTW. Back in 2014.

[Paladinleeds]

It's time to for SE to take back that message about "kicking for playstyle" being valid, and suspending accounts that kick players without being AFK/Offline.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ically-allowed

Hate to break it to you, but that'll just lead to situations where you have 2 players at an impasse with very different styles, and arguments throughout. Allowing people to kick for playstyle differences helps stop impasses like this, since the majority will rule. Taking that away won't magically stop these arguments from occurring, it'll just leave people without a way to resolve it if there's 2 people that won't adapt.

[Aramina]

The discussion we should be having is why we tolerate this childish entitlement attitude from speedrunning/raiders at all. The raiders are not helping their case by being rude to me, or others throughout the thread or in the game. The raiders are the one using the unauthorized tools with impunity and even brag about it. So, no. There is no way you know how much damage you or any other party member is doing individually without violating the ToS in real time.

No, the discussion is, and should be, why some people think it is ok to sit there with their thumb up their butt for 50+% of the dungeon when the other 3 people are working to finish it.


And for the 438290482394082309 time no one is saying they want healers to do top dps, they are saying they want them to do SOMETHING other than stand there looking cute. If you can't tell the difference between someone casting something ANYTHING and them doing nothing at all, that failure is yours alone.

If someone is playing a healer, they have no down time or the party would be dead in 5 seconds.

Normally I wouldn't do this because everyone's experience varies.... but... I am going to make an exception: Having levelled 4 different characters to 60 as a healer using only dungeons to supplement MSQ exp. This is a lie.

[Anzaman]

Grow up and be open minded that some of us want to play the game without being told by players how to play the game, at all. If your reaction to not finishing a boss 10 seconds faster is "you must dps or kick" then you're the one with toxic attitude, not the healer.

Why should people to open minded to people who AFK and "stare at wall" instead of participating in content?

If someone is playing a healer, they have no down time or the party would be dead in 5 seconds.

You earlier said this, in what content exactly do whole party die if you use two GCD's for throwing DoTs instead of casting Medica spam? If your party keeps standing in AoE's or fail mechanics over and over, do something instead of silently accepting it.

[BlackironTarkus]

Kisai as long as you're mashing buttons and those buttons are contributing something to the run then that's fine. Being lazy is not.

Tanks and DPS are 100% expected to be pushing a button whenever possible. When they are not they get kicked.

If you absolutely do not have downtime in between heals, you're being carried. If you have lots of downtime without overhealing by vast quantities, and not doing anything else, you're being carried. If you're sitting there spamming the hell out of heals AND overhealing by a ton, you're actively hindering your group.

Why should I put in the effort of maintaining my full rotation with gcd weaving if you're not even bothered to push a button between where healing is needed?

Always Be Casting. The mantra of any caster in modern mmo's, healer or not.

[Orrias]

'Forcing' non-DPS roles to dps to an expected output - to me - seems like a conundrum between, 'let's all do our best', to "you're not playing how I"/a disgruntled (and dare I say over entitled) group of vocal people want you to.

This could just be a fork in the evolution of the MMO(RPG) genre (i.e. becoming more involved and blurring the line of traditional fantasy Classes).

/justmy2cents

[Aramina]

'Forcing' non-DPS roles to dps to an expected output - to me - seems like a conundrum between, 'let's all do our best', to "you're not playing how I"/a disgruntled (and dare I say over entitled) group of vocal people want you to.

This could just be a fork in the evolution of the MMO(RPG) genre (i.e. becoming more involved and blurring the line of traditional fantasy Classes).

/justmy2cents

If anyone was expecting a certain minimum otuput then you would be correct, but I don't think it is a new thing to MMOs (or any game) to expect equal contribution in group activities.

[Orrias]

If anyone was expecting a certain minimum otuput then you would be correct

People do expect a minimum dps output from Tanks/Healers/DDs, though. No midcore-to-hardcore static or majority mentality based group is going to not kick a Tank/Healer/DD is they aren't putting out at least a fair percentage of what the top-tier players are outputting. People use ACT/FFlogs. That's a fact.

I don't think it is a new thing to MMOs (or any game) to expect equal contribution in group activities.

I don't mean to be rude, but over the course of MMOs, resource management has been a thing, as has varying levels of throughput and amounts of HPS/DPS needed to meet certain criteria (i.e. to keep everyone alive and/or not cause a soft/hard enrage). FFXIV is very leniant by comparison. If you ever played WoW for it's duration, then you'll understand that a Healer was there to heal, a Tank to tank, etc. I'm saying that the traditional understanding of what each role does has evolved in the genre. To me, this is a situational problem and not one which should be forced or ingrained into new players' minds when they START the game, but, it's something to think about if they want to speed up a run or down a boss. There are valid arguements for both sides, but it's down to player preference and allowing people to ease into that mindset, rather than buldgoning new players or casual gamers. Intentions of groups/statics can be formed prior to engaging content. That way people can either up there game or just languish with what they prefer.

[Aramina]

People do expect a minimum dps output from Tanks/Healers/DDs, though. No midcore-to-hardcore static or majority mentality based group is going to not kick a Tank/Healer/DD is they aren't putting out at least a fair percentage of what the top-tier players are outputting. People use ACT/FFlogs. That's a fact.

We are talking about random dungeons, not Savage raiding with statics.

I don't mean to be rude, but over the course of MMOs, resource management has been a thing, as has varying levels of throughput and amounts of HPS/DPS needed to meet certain criteria (i.e. to keep everyone alive and/or not cause a soft/hard enrage). FFXIV is very leniant by comparison. If you ever played WoW for it's duration, then you'll understand that a Healer was there to heal, a Tank to tank, etc. I'm saying that the traditional understanding of what each role does has evolved in the genre. To me, this is a situational problem and not one which should be forced or ingrained into new players' minds when they START the game, but, it's something to think about if they want to speed up a run or down a boss. There are valid arguements for both sides, but it's down to player preference and allowing people to ease into that mindset, rather than buldgoning new players or casual gamers. Intentions of groups/statics can be formed prior to engaging content. That way people can either up there game or just languish with what they prefer.

None of this counters my point. Doing all that you can to see to the success of the group IS equal contribution. Also, as a healer (and a tank though I never mained a tank) in WoW you were/are absolutely expected to do damage when healing was covered in high end raiding. The only thing that changes is how much you are able to do that. Solo gaming is for playing how you want, anytime you venture into group activity you should be of the mind to do what the group needs, not what you want. If you want to half-ass it, PF is there to find other people that want to do that as well.

[Zojha]

I'm saying that the traditional understanding of what each role does has evolved in the genre.

That's not entirely correct - It's less about the genre and more about the particular game.

Simple fact is that healers and tanks are superfluous design. You only need them if you mandate them, if you enforce them. Otherwise, people could and would well go without. Damage however does not work that way - Even tanks and healers need it and without it, tanks and healers could not function either, because both mitigating damage and undoing damage rely on damage to exist in the first place. Damage is the only thing that "truly" matters.

That in turn means that the easier and more powerful tanks and healers are, the less they become healers/tanks, as the emphasis of gameplay shifts to other things - their core role is mandatory up to a point and then useless. The shift goes to damage, or damage support. And since healers and tanks also get extensive damage tools for solo play these days, that enforces the shift all the more, as it increases the efficiency of it.

That isn't really a situational problem: All trinity games necessarily suffer from it to some degree. The difference lies in the amount of mitigation/healing activity the game mandates. FFXIV is very lenient and that's why the DPS meta is so rampant here. If we'd nerf all heals by 50% tomorrow and put tank armor on the level of DPS armor while making mitigation part of the active rotation, people might well stop asking healers and tanks to DPS in but a day, as most would likely be happy if they'd get but a functional tank/healer in the first place. As is, functioning as tank/healer is so easy, it's a given. That's not necessarily the case in other games within the genre.

In that, it probably is a situational problem - the situation being FFXIV.