We're all DDs now >.>

[Orrias]

'Forcing' non-DPS roles to dps to an expected output - to me - seems like a conundrum between, 'let's all do our best', to "you're not playing how I"/a disgruntled (and dare I say over entitled) group of vocal people want you to.

This could just be a fork in the evolution of the MMO(RPG) genre (i.e. becoming more involved and blurring the line of traditional fantasy Classes).

/justmy2cents

[Aramina]

'Forcing' non-DPS roles to dps to an expected output - to me - seems like a conundrum between, 'let's all do our best', to "you're not playing how I"/a disgruntled (and dare I say over entitled) group of vocal people want you to.

This could just be a fork in the evolution of the MMO(RPG) genre (i.e. becoming more involved and blurring the line of traditional fantasy Classes).

/justmy2cents

If anyone was expecting a certain minimum otuput then you would be correct, but I don't think it is a new thing to MMOs (or any game) to expect equal contribution in group activities.

[Orrias]

If anyone was expecting a certain minimum otuput then you would be correct

People do expect a minimum dps output from Tanks/Healers/DDs, though. No midcore-to-hardcore static or majority mentality based group is going to not kick a Tank/Healer/DD is they aren't putting out at least a fair percentage of what the top-tier players are outputting. People use ACT/FFlogs. That's a fact.

I don't think it is a new thing to MMOs (or any game) to expect equal contribution in group activities.

I don't mean to be rude, but over the course of MMOs, resource management has been a thing, as has varying levels of throughput and amounts of HPS/DPS needed to meet certain criteria (i.e. to keep everyone alive and/or not cause a soft/hard enrage). FFXIV is very leniant by comparison. If you ever played WoW for it's duration, then you'll understand that a Healer was there to heal, a Tank to tank, etc. I'm saying that the traditional understanding of what each role does has evolved in the genre. To me, this is a situational problem and not one which should be forced or ingrained into new players' minds when they START the game, but, it's something to think about if they want to speed up a run or down a boss. There are valid arguements for both sides, but it's down to player preference and allowing people to ease into that mindset, rather than buldgoning new players or casual gamers. Intentions of groups/statics can be formed prior to engaging content. That way people can either up there game or just languish with what they prefer.

[Aramina]

People do expect a minimum dps output from Tanks/Healers/DDs, though. No midcore-to-hardcore static or majority mentality based group is going to not kick a Tank/Healer/DD is they aren't putting out at least a fair percentage of what the top-tier players are outputting. People use ACT/FFlogs. That's a fact.

We are talking about random dungeons, not Savage raiding with statics.

I don't mean to be rude, but over the course of MMOs, resource management has been a thing, as has varying levels of throughput and amounts of HPS/DPS needed to meet certain criteria (i.e. to keep everyone alive and/or not cause a soft/hard enrage). FFXIV is very leniant by comparison. If you ever played WoW for it's duration, then you'll understand that a Healer was there to heal, a Tank to tank, etc. I'm saying that the traditional understanding of what each role does has evolved in the genre. To me, this is a situational problem and not one which should be forced or ingrained into new players' minds when they START the game, but, it's something to think about if they want to speed up a run or down a boss. There are valid arguements for both sides, but it's down to player preference and allowing people to ease into that mindset, rather than buldgoning new players or casual gamers. Intentions of groups/statics can be formed prior to engaging content. That way people can either up there game or just languish with what they prefer.

None of this counters my point. Doing all that you can to see to the success of the group IS equal contribution. Also, as a healer (and a tank though I never mained a tank) in WoW you were/are absolutely expected to do damage when healing was covered in high end raiding. The only thing that changes is how much you are able to do that. Solo gaming is for playing how you want, anytime you venture into group activity you should be of the mind to do what the group needs, not what you want. If you want to half-ass it, PF is there to find other people that want to do that as well.

[Orrias]

Doing all that you can to see to the success of the group IS equal contribution.

How do you measure "equal contribution" of different roles? Apples and oranges... :P

as a healer (and a tank though I never mained a tank) in WoW you were/are absolutely expected to do damage when healing was covered in high end raiding.

My issue with the mentality is where it should be picked up by players, during their progression through the game.

Solo gaming is for playing how you want, anytime you venture into group activity you should be of the mind to do what the group needs, not what you want. If you want to half-ass it, PF is there to find other people that want to do that as well.

Sure, I agree, but the issue stems from a vocal part of the playerbase just expecting random people to be able to perform in dungeons/PUGs. I think that's unfair and the vitriol/childishness that ensues is saddening. People need to use a bit of conventional wisdom and tact to encourage random players to increase their skill with the Job/Role, because at the end of the day, trying to force people to do something they're not comfortable/familiar with isn't going to go down well.

Imagine if you just got back into an old MMO or a new one's endgame, only to find that more seasoned players expected more than what's listed as an expectation to the Jobs fantasy (e.g. if you picked up FFXIV wanting to heal and then was suddenly bombard by others saying you're supposed to dps too, it may comes as a surprise), and then compound that with the tactless bashing that people do.

My approach this in a broad sense; as PF and statics vet for what they expect/what their intentions and goals are. It's in DF (NA/EU) - typically dungeons - that this occurs. If it's a random dungeon, then expect Joe/Jane Doe to not be up to the same standard (if you're mid-hardcore) - hope for the best but prepare for the worst.

[Aramina]

How do you come "equal contribution" of different roles?
My issue with the mentality is where it should be picked up by players, during their progression through the game.

Quite easily. Does someone have full/adequate resources? Are they just standing there for large portions of time?

If yes, they are not equally contributing.

Imagine if you just got back into an old MMO or a new one's endgame, only to find that more seasoned players expected more than what's listed as an expectation to the Jobs fantasy (e.g. if you picked up FFXIV wanting to heal and then was suddenly bombard by others saying you're supposed to dps too, it may comes as a surprise), and then compound that with the tactless bashing that people do.

I did just that. I didn't start out as a DPSing healer. I read forums/guides/listened to people in game and slowly worked toward becoming adept/comfortable with dpsing during my healing downtime.

My approach this in a broad sense; as PF and statics vet for what they expect/what their intentions and goals are. It's in DF (NA/EU) - typically dungeons - that this occurs. If it's a random dungeon, then expect Joe/Jane Doe to not be up to the same standard (if you're mid-hardcore) - hope for the best but prepare for the worst.

Which is fair. I personally wouldn't kick anyone for not dpsing (or dpsing enough as an actual DPS) (unless it is to the point that we are in danger of not completing the objective), but that doesn't mean I am going to say that is a perfectly ok way of playing, because it isn't.

[TaranTatsuuchi]

The fact that you can even describe a parser tells me you've used one. Every data-mined thing about this game was acquired via such activity. So no, it's only obvious that someone is not playing to their potential when they are not even trying.....

I know what a parser does.
I've never used one in any game.

It's not hard to learn that a parser reads the output of something, parsing it.
In this case, the combat log.
And then quickly compiles that data into an easy to read format for the end user.

How do you measure "equal contribution" of different roles? Apples and oranges... :P
....

In the case of what we're discussing in this thread...
Activating skills in such a way that they activly contribute to the duty...

Such as, healers casting heals when the party needs healing, and when they don't need healing casting something else that contributes...

Overhealing is not contributing, so the only other option is damage.


I'm sure people would be upset if their dps or tanks weren't activating skills at least close to the gcd time...

[Zojha]

I'm saying that the traditional understanding of what each role does has evolved in the genre.

That's not entirely correct - It's less about the genre and more about the particular game.

Simple fact is that healers and tanks are superfluous design. You only need them if you mandate them, if you enforce them. Otherwise, people could and would well go without. Damage however does not work that way - Even tanks and healers need it and without it, tanks and healers could not function either, because both mitigating damage and undoing damage rely on damage to exist in the first place. Damage is the only thing that "truly" matters.

That in turn means that the easier and more powerful tanks and healers are, the less they become healers/tanks, as the emphasis of gameplay shifts to other things - their core role is mandatory up to a point and then useless. The shift goes to damage, or damage support. And since healers and tanks also get extensive damage tools for solo play these days, that enforces the shift all the more, as it increases the efficiency of it.

That isn't really a situational problem: All trinity games necessarily suffer from it to some degree. The difference lies in the amount of mitigation/healing activity the game mandates. FFXIV is very lenient and that's why the DPS meta is so rampant here. If we'd nerf all heals by 50% tomorrow and put tank armor on the level of DPS armor while making mitigation part of the active rotation, people might well stop asking healers and tanks to DPS in but a day, as most would likely be happy if they'd get but a functional tank/healer in the first place. As is, functioning as tank/healer is so easy, it's a given. That's not necessarily the case in other games within the genre.

In that, it probably is a situational problem - the situation being FFXIV.

[Orrias]

That's not entirely correct - It's less about the genre and more about the particular game.

That's what I was saying: FFXIV is (un)intentionally added to the process of evolving what is traditionally expected of MMO roles. People in Everquest, SWG, Lineage, etc., weren't approaching roles like they had to do dps. They were focused on their respective roles' job (e.g. heal or tank).

Most MMO didn't typically allow for such gapping windows of opportunity to dps like Healers can in FFXIV, unless the GCD was long or the combat was slow in w/e fashion. The vast majority of playerbases weren't able to add substantial percentages of dps to mix, until they overgeared the content or it was nerfed.

That in turn means that the easier and more powerful tanks and healers are, the less they become healers/tanks, as the emphasis of gameplay shifts to other things - their core role is mandatory up to a point and then useless. The shift goes to damage, or damage support. And since healers and tanks also get extensive damage tools for solo play these days, that enforces the shift all the more, as it increases the efficiency of it.

Absolutely. Once a Tank has taken and can't be striped of aggro/hate, or a Healer/Healers' resources are comfortably in the range of not being overrun by HPS required, then it makes sense to do something with X resource and time of said player. However, I don't think it's something that veteran players of any MMO should expect a (new) random casual to get straight away or want to do, really. It'd be nice, but I wouldn't expect it or beat someone over the head with it. :/

[HappyHubris]

. . FFXIV is very lenient and that's why the DPS meta is so rampant here. If we'd nerf all heals by 50% tomorrow and put tank armor on the level of DPS armor while making mitigation part of the active rotation, people might well stop asking healers and tanks to DPS in but a day, as most would likely be happy if they'd get but a functional tank/healer in the first place. As is, functioning as tank/healer is so easy, it's a given. That's not necessarily the case in other games within the genre.

In that, it probably is a situational problem - the situation being FFXIV.

Agreed 1000%. I want to main WHM in SB for aesthetic reasons (and a general proclivity towards healing in other MMOs), but nothing is more boring than healing in content where healing isn't needed much.

The fact that this entire game is tuned to barely require healing or tanking means that DPS is the only sane option.