Consolidated White Mage 4.0 Feedback Thread

[Cynfael]

I Posted this twice now..... Efficiency can be demonstrated in several ways among which : Actual Output/MAX CAPABLE Output is one of the many measures of efficiency we can use.

effective potency/max potency = Potency efficiency....................

I think I get where you're trying to go with this, and you have a point as far as it goes, but I'm not sure why this is a talking point.

Regardless of which measure of efficiency you choose to focus on, there isn't really anything there that supports 4.0 WHM mechanics (specifically the Lily gauge) being very useful or desirable.

[javid]

Regardless of which measure of efficiency you choose to focus on, there isn't really anything there that supports 4.0 WHM mechanics (specifically the Lily gauge) being very useful or desirable.

you conclusion is invalid. One of the prevailing arugments on this forum is "IF SE IS DEAD SET ON MAKING A RNG PROC SYSTEM BASED ON WHM SKILL USAGE, why not make it proc off of regens and medica II's?"

And my posted answered that questions with why IT WON'T be on regen/medica II applications. Plainly b/c there are too few of them per fight by comparison to Cures I & II; Also in an early post I demonstrated why it would be even worst if they made it proc off of regen ticks (how abusive it could be and/or completely unoticeable by efficient play-styles). Hence the reason why it has to stay on Cures IF SE IS DEAD SET ON A RNG PROC SYSTEM BASED ON WHM SKILL USAGE.

[Cynfael]

you conclusion is invalid. One of the prevailing arugments on this forum is "IF SE IS DEAD SET ON MAKING A RNG PROC SYSTEM BASED ON WHM SKILL USAGE, why not make it proc off of regens and medica II's?"

And my posted answered that questions with why IT WON'T be on regen/medica II applications. Plainly b/c there are too few of them per fight by comparison to Cures I & II; Also in an early post I demonstrated why it would be even worst if they made it proc off of regen ticks (how abusive it could be and/or completely unoticeable by efficient play-styles). Hence the reason why it has to stay on Cures IF SE IS DEAD SET ON A RNG PROC SYSTEM BASED ON WHM SKILL USAGE.

Even if I accepted your conclusion to be valid (which I don't at this time), that alone wouldn't solve the Lily problem.

The bit about regen and medica II etc. not working with the Lily system isn't actually the prevailing argument; it's a subordinate argument to the main issue of Lilies being terrible as presented at the media reveal.

Ah haaa!! While the first point of outdated Mainheal/Offheal isn't true in current meta nor will it be true moving forward towards Speed clear farm phases in the future. The second point is very much something to consider!

I don't feel like posting more logs, but I wouldn't be surprised if we pull stats on fights where both healers contribute about the same HPS, that the distribution of skills used in that cooperation won't vary too far from the Main healer/Off healer skill distributions.

You...don't think that Mainheal/Offheal is outdated? Well, this does help explain some of your positions in this thread.

[MintnHoney]

You...don't think that Mainheal/Offheal is outdated?

It's definitely an outdated concept, but wouldn't the situation he presents with his samples be a good example of a sort of stress test situation? In such a situation, although there was an out, the White Mage solo healed, and solo healed sufficiently and effectively, using what he or she had in his or her disposal. In my mind, maybe that's not what you or I would be doing, but that sort of data sample might be what influences decisions like the ones made and put out for the lilies and confessions. I don't think it's wrong to bring it up, even if it isn't a direct solution to the lilies and confessions' lack of meaningful utility.

Edit: Again, trying to keep it clear that I'm not advocating for the current lily and confession system, speaking from a perspective as a player who played Thordan Extreme many times with PUGs via Duty Finder before they stuck it into the Raid Finder, I've actually seen many White Mages try to heal by only using Cure and maybe, if I was lucky, an occasional Cure II. A Medica II if they were feeling particularly jazzy. Definitely not the best way to go into these fights, but maybe something similar happens with much of the casual market of the game, and that's what they were trying to address?

Edit again: Actually, I believe that he was agreeing with you about this being an outdated META. He's saying that the composition isn't true, as in, it isn't the true Meta at this time and that it won't be, going forward. At least, I think.

He's not here to add anything to the discussion

I know. But I dare to dream, and hope that maybe, just maybe, he's serious.
And that he'll listen to reason.

[Saraphin]

Snip.

It is Definitely a Stress-Test on the WHM. I've done A9s as "Solo heal" with BOTH an AST and a SCH as my "co-heal". at the end of the run, you feel very accomplished and then slink to the MB for more MP pots because you forgot to go to Diadem to get the stuff to make them.

[Cynfael]

It's definitely an outdated concept, but wouldn't the situation he presents with his samples be a good example of a sort of stress test situation? In such a situation, although there was an out, the White Mage solo healed, and solo healed sufficiently and effectively, using what he or she had in his or her disposal. In my mind, maybe that's not what you or I would be doing, but that sort of data sample might be what influences decisions like the ones made and put out for the lilies and confessions. I don't think it's wrong to bring it up, even if it isn't a direct solution to the lilies and confessions' lack of meaningful utility.

It's not irrelevant to bring it up; the reason why I don't weigh it very heavily, though, is that it doesn't uncover significant value in the new WHM Job mechanic.

It doesn't matter how many logs can be picked out to show examples of WHMs actually using a lot of Cure and Cure II since the main argument against Lilies being useful isn't addressed with this data. If anything these situations give us an idea of how lackluster Lilies look to be even when you do cast as many Cures as SE seems to think that WHMs do all the time.

The really scary thought is that Cure spam without consideration for overall efficiency really is how the majority of players do WHM, and that's why SE thinks this is a good idea, but is in effect proposing to pander to the lowest common denominator.

[javid]

It doesn't matter how many logs can be picked out to show examples of WHMs actually using a lot of Cure and Cure II since the main argument against Lilies being useful isn't addressed with this data...

The really scary thought is that Cure spam without consideration for overall efficiency really is how the majority of players do WHM, and that's why SE thinks this is a good idea, but is in effect proposing to pander to the lowest common denominator.

I only agree that my post did not address the lackluster aspect of the lily system. It wasn't meant to defend it per say; it was meant to say IFFFFF SE WILL NOTTTT CHANGGE THEIR MIND ON MAKING WHM USE A RNG PROC SYSTEM BASED ON SKILLS USED.......no better set of skills would facilitate our proc rates (without massive abuse and inefficiency) like Cure I & Cure II.

And to your second point, the opposite would be worst!! The masses of WHM that don't know efficiency ( potency/gcd, potency/mp, effective potency/max potency) and spam cures in excess for no reason HOPING to proc a lil; would be in worst shape if lilies proc off of regen ticks or applications; they would abuse the mess out of over healing it wouldn't even be close!!

I gave the examples some pages back, if they made it based proc based on ticks vs cure applications, just in a matter of 30 sec (with a 2.0 GCD) you could wastefully spam 15 cures, 15 gcds! But in that same time frame you could have spam wastefully 12 regens and 1 medica II and got 133 ticks, 13 gcds!! Lastly if you did it based on applications of regen/medica II (without being able to override original application for additional proc) you'd run into clipping hurting ppl proc rate!


Again my I'm not defending there having to be a RNG Lily system that so underwhelming in its rewards (my guess is they made it so underpowered b/c of the potential confessions will have! And if we were in SB right now and doing all the fights I listed the number of cures present would facilitate confession proc rates out the noise! However bk to the lilies specifically, it can be that SE DOESN'T WANT PPL TO SPAM by under incentivizing the reward of getting 3 lilies; making it not worth the wasteful spam in anyway. So you'd play WHM mostly like you play it now and getting 3 lil procs would be something "cute", like "look I actually got 3 lilies!??", but even the worst of whm spammers would see 3 lilies soooo rarely (the stats are available on an early post)

[javid]

Even if I accepted your conclusion to be valid (which I don't at this time), that alone wouldn't solve the Lily problem.

The bit about regen and medica II etc. not working with the Lily system isn't actually the prevailing argument; it's a subordinate argument to the main issue of Lilies being terrible as presented at the media reveal.



You...don't think that Mainheal/Offheal is outdated? Well, this does help explain some of your positions in this thread.

If you're being technical about what it means to be a main and off healer then I have no idea what your meaning of main and off healer means.

But the definition of main healer and off healer is the main healer does most the work and the off healer picks up the slack. Any ratio of healing that isn't 100%/0% or 50%/50% are all compositions of Main healer/Off healer. If you meaning something else about the term Main healer/ Off healer then I'm confused.