We're all DDs now >.>

[Kaisinel]

Uneducated rant

You must live a life of blissful ignorance, perhaps it's best the forums recognize your lack of awareness and allow you to remain in your own oblivious world.

[Paladinleeds]

so....do I:
1) ask them to put effort? then I get rude comments and/or insults.
2) Try to kick them then? See it being rejected and yourself kicked (because these players tend to team up)
3) Stop your healer dps altogether? "Enjoy" a beautiful slow motion dungeon experience.

1) File a report to the GMs if they get rude or start insulting you. I believe that comes under harassment. And reports do work cross-realm. - also cross realm blacklist too (which by the way, did you know about the Contacts tab under social, used it to find a few toxic people from previous groups and blacklist them. Very useful! Just a heads-up incase you didn't know)
2) Yay! A free ticket out of that toxic dungeon for them kicking you, with no penalty either!
3) And if they complain about it, you can go back to one and explain "Well, I'm only matching what you guys are doing. Want me to pick up the pace? Pick yours up too." - if they get rude see point 1 and file a report, if they do 2 you requeue without penalty.

While I agree there's a problem there (though I tend to be laid back about things so I generally don't complain about it), it may also be they're struggling with the class so if they explain politely that they're struggling, we can go from there and try and help them improve. I'll admit I've posted my fair share of rants in the DF tales thread, but here, I figured I'd offer solutions instead.

EDIT: Hmm, it appears my previous post was deleted. Did it auto-remove because one of the people I quoted deleted their message? There's no "Deleted by" trail either... - I would have gone to edit that bit out but the entire post is gone...

[Aramina]

I don't disagree that there is a problem with bad DPS, I just don't see how that is related to healers dps'ing or not. A player that is conciously dragging down the party is a nuisance whether they be a dps, a tank, or a healer. Generally speaking I don't kick unless someone is being an asshat, but hey that's just me

edit: Btw, the post got deleted so it looks like I am asking Faliandra who peed in her cornflakes so off to delete....

[Faliandra]

1) File a report to the GMs if they get rude or start insulting you. I believe that comes under harassment. And reports do work cross-realm. - also cross realm blacklist too (which by the way, did you know about the Contacts tab under social, used it to find a few toxic people from previous groups and blacklist them. Very useful! Just a heads-up incase you didn't know)
2) Yay! A free ticket out of that toxic dungeon for them kicking you, with no penalty either!
3) And if they complain about it, you can go back to one and explain "Well, I'm only matching what you guys are doing. Want me to pick up the pace? Pick yours up too." - if they get rude see point 1 and file a report, if they do 2 you requeue without penalty.

While I agree there's a problem there (though I tend to be laid back about things so I generally don't complain about it), it may also be they're struggling with the class so if they explain politely that they're struggling, we can go from there and try and help them improve. I'll admit I've posted my fair share of rants in the DF tales thread, but here, I figured I'd offer solutions instead.

see. I knew I'd get a reply like this...and its not really helping.

1) not all insults or comments are bad enough to really be reportable. Someone giving me attitude and being rude doesnt mean theyll face consequences. Some of these people stay subtle enough to get away with this. If it IS indeed beyond a certain point, i DO report though. Dont worry. however, reporting every day is a bit of a hassle. Anyway, I do it when I feel that it could work.

2) I know that. But it doesnt change the fact its frustrating how many people reject a votekick out of pure ignorance. Lets say you have a random tank, yourself as the heal and 2 teamed up DPS who do ABYSMALLY low dps. You try to confront them. They give you attitude. Then you initiate the votekick HOPING the random tank has some common sense......and he rejects. The 2 teamed up dps then continue to kick you. (<-- true story,btw)
Yeah. Sure I am now out of this hell without a penalty. But I still wasted time queueing (healer queues arent so great these days,at least not on EU Chaos) and inside the dungeon. And basically,they won. Even a random who didnt know the slackers basically sided with them. I can only hope they got a no-dps healer replacement who made their run painfully slow. Point remains: People should be sticking together and get rid of the bad apples. but they dont. Most likely they dont even know.

3) they cant complain. but its not something id do anyway, i dont want to remain in a party where 2 dps need 30 secs to kill a single mob. I may stall my dps for a while and tell them to watch how slow its going
but if they still dont step up their game...I'm gonna leave or ask to be kicked.


and to your last point:
You are ignorant too. Maybe you arent aware of it, but you are. I dont even mean this in a offensive or rude way but: You dont know better. Im not an elitist whos expecting top dps. But I have all classes on 60, and trust me, some of them I hardly know how to play because I lvled them long time ago and didnt touch them since then. And I do better. Way better.
I suggest you get a parser if you arent on PS4 and go to a dummy and put EFFORT to play a class you dont know well decently. Do it for like 2 minutes and check your overall DPS. Then repeat the same thing again, but this time: only do a 1-2-3 combo. keep pushing those 3 buttons and then check your overall dps. After that: keep pressing ONLY the FIRST button of your 1-2-3 combo. thats right, spam that 1 button hard for a while. And note your DPS. then start running dungeons....and youll get to see dps classes regularly, doing LESS than what you did with spamming 1 button.

Theyre doing basically auto-attack and every once in a while they press 1.
Thats all theyre doing. I do double the amount of dps on a single target and 3-4 times as much on a pack AoE as a HEALER compared to those DPS.

And there is one thing you need to understand: these players arent struggling. Theyre lazy. Pushing 1 button or even 3 has nothing to do with struggling. Stop giving them the benefit of doubt.a
The average roulette dps does 1400-1800 dps....ánd Id be the last person to kick those. They may not have the best rotation,but they actually are putting effort. The lazy ones stay below 1000.Like around 600-800 dps. There is absolutely no justification for this.
Everyone only using 1 or 3 skills out of their...say what...20-25 skills isnt struggling. theres no way you can not SEE or acknowledge all these other skills. Its purposefully being lazy.

[Paladinleeds]

I'm skipping the 1/3 bit as I feel you have adequatedly addressed my concerns and feel no need to go further on those. We're at a point where we're singing from the same hymn sheet, so no need to press further. Though on point 2, regarding healer queues, while they're not instant, they certainly haven't felt that bad to me. Usually about 4-5 minutes (Odin, so Chaos datacentre like yourself). Perhaps I'm getting better luck, perhaps it's to do with the time of day we play? Who knows? I'll still respect your point about queues though. (Edit: For clarification, the point I'm trying to get across there is while my experiences have been different, I accept everyone has different experiences and thus I'm not trying to put down your own experiences, only offer mine as a comparison)

You are ignorant too. Maybe you arent aware of it, but you are. You dont know better. Im not an elitist whos expecting top dps. But I have all classes on 60, and trust me, some of them I hardly know how to play because I lvled them long time ago and didnt touch them since then. And I do better. Way better.

I'll openly admit I don't know everything. I was trying to work with the information I had been given. Now, the information you have given in the bottom paragraph gives me a much better picture of the situation and I'm coming to your viewpoint on that. Though I would like to add I wasn't saying you were wanting top DPS (if that's how I came across, then I apologise, blatantly bad wording on my part looking back. Kinda ironic given I recently dinged someone for going off on a rant that they had potentially phrasied badly right?), but rather more pointing out that I am possibly too laid back about it (I don't think I've ever once initiated a vote kick in Expert Roulette. Perhaps I'm inadvertently encouraging them because of it, by making it look like it's OK because I just take it?).

I suggest you get a parser if you arent on PS4 and go to a dummy and put EFFORT to play a class you dont know well decently. Do it for like 2 minutes and check your overall DPS. Then repeat the same thing again, but this time: only do a 1-2-3 combo. keep pushing those 3 buttons and then check your overall dps. After that: keep pressing ONLY the FIRST button of your 1-2-3 combo. thats right, spam that 1 button hard for a while. And note your DPS. then start running dungeons....and youll get to see dps classes regularly, doing LESS than what you did with spamming 1 button.

I'm on PC, but because of how the rules are, I'm very wary about a parser. I know that a lot of people don't get punished for it, just prefer not to take the risk. Perhaps I'm being over-cautious of the rules or reading them too deeply, but those are my personal thoughts? Nothing against those who do use parsers, just I feel I put my account at too great a risk personally to use one.

Theyre doing basically auto-attack and every once in a while they press 1.
Thats all theyre doing. I do double the amount of dps on a single target and 3-4 times as much on a pack AoE as a HEALER compared to those DPS.

I'll try to look out for that more. I appreciate you bringing that to my attention, though I will admit I've never seen it, possibly due to my lack of knowledge. I appreciate you bringing that to my attention though.

And there is one thing you need to understand: these players arent struggling. Theyre lazy. Pushing 1 button or even 3 has nothing to do with struggling. Stop giving them the benefit of doubt.a
The average roulette dps does 1400-1800 dps....ánd Id be the last person to kick those. They may not have the best rotation,but they actually are putting effort. The lazy ones stay below 1000.Like around 600-800 dps. There is absolutely no justification for this.

On this I agree. I'm not expecting 100% uptime or MLG level plays. Heck, I don't even mind someone being below average if they're struggling with the job and alert us to that. I'll also try and guide them as best as I can. But those that are being lazy like you said, is where it becomes a huge problem. It's one thing to be having trouble with the class (which inferring from your post, you don't have an issue with either), but when it comes to lazy players, that's a whole other ballgame. Even on autopilot I'm still getting something like 80-90% casting uptime on my Scholar (mostly DPS on bosses, with trash varying dependent on size of pull, tank gear, and other factors).

[Faliandra]

I'm skipping the 1/3 bit as I feel you have adequatedly addressed my concerns and feel no need to go further on those. We're at a point where we're singing from the same hymn sheet, so no need to press further. Though on point 2, regarding healer queues, while they're not instant, they certainly haven't felt that bad to me. Usually about 4-5 minutes (Odin, so Chaos datacentre like yourself). Perhaps I'm getting better luck, perhaps it's to do with the time of day we play? Who knows? I'll still respect your point about queues though.

And youve never queued up to expert since 3.5 hit and noticed yourself #25-30 on the queue? It has gone down a little recently,but it still does take a while. It is worse around early evening than it is during late evening,ofc. I have very well waited 20-25 minutes to get into expert...as a healer. You need 1 heal per dungeon, but 2 dps. so a DPS whos #40 may be in faster than a healer whos at #25.

I'll openly admit I don't know everything. I was trying to work with the information I had been given. Now, the information you have given in the bottom paragraph gives me a much better picture of the situation and I'm coming to your viewpoint on that. Though I would like to add I wasn't saying you were wanting top DPS (if that's how I came across, then I apologise, blatantly bad wording on my part looking back. Kinda ironic given I recently dinged someone for going off on a rant that they had potentially phrasied badly right?), but rather more pointing out that I am possibly too laid back about it (I don't think I've ever once initiated a vote kick in Expert Roulette. Perhaps I'm inadvertently encouraging them because of it, by making it look like it's OK because I just take it?).

me saying im not an elitist who expects top dps was just a careful disclaimer before the next oblivious casual troll comes out of his cave throwing "OMG ELITIST" at me. you didnt come across like that, dont worry. But also: I wouldnt say you are encouraging it,but many people are like you and they will let the bad dps slide so theres literally zero incentive for the baddie to improve because "lol, i wont get kicked anyway".

I'm on PC, but because of how the rules are, I'm very wary about a parser. I know that a lot of people don't get punished for it, just prefer not to take the risk. Perhaps I'm being over-cautious of the rules or reading them too deeply, but those are my personal thoughts? Nothing against those who do use parsers, just I feel I put my account at too great a risk personally to use one.

SE knows the parser exist and that they cant do anything against it. They cant track it down either. SE knows all the top statics and fcs use it and it gives them vital information about their encounter. Some of them openly put their parsings on youtube. Theres fflogs. Even PFs going for ex and savage content casually talk about parsings or even ask for their parsings. Theres only one rule: no harassment.
But you dont need a parser to see dps is bad. Ofc you dont shout "hey derp00n, why are you only doing 500 dps? Auto-attack much?" if ya get what I mean.
Up to you, but this is how it is. And SE wont do anything unless you basically give them proof that you were using a parser to harass someone and that someone reported you.
Ofc, in the end its up to you, so dont see this as an attempt to convince you.
But I dont see my account at risk.

I'll try to look out for that more. I appreciate you bringing that to my attention, though I will admit I've never seen it, possibly due to my lack of knowledge. I appreciate you bringing that to my attention though.

now the thing is. The tank dpses....you said you dps on your sch...and you have 2 DDs. While I come across those DDs regularly...its not as common to have 2 of that kind. Its usually one average or even good dps and one whos really bad. Point is: stuff will die. Not crazily fast,but fast enough to sometimes hide the fact that someone is doing really badly. And healer dps makes a big difference, contrary to popular belief. So once you stop your healer dps and stuff is dying rather slowly, you know why.

On this I agree. I'm not expecting 100% uptime or MLG level plays. Heck, I don't even mind someone being below average if they're struggling with the job and alert us to that. I'll also try and guide them as best as I can. But those that are being lazy like you said, is where it becomes a huge problem. It's one thing to be having trouble with the class (which inferring from your post, you don't have an issue with either), but when it comes to lazy players, that's a whole other ballgame. Even on autopilot I'm still getting something like 80-90% casting uptime on my Scholar (mostly DPS on bosses, with trash varying dependent on size of pull, tank gear, and other factors).

I am very open to help struggling people....___IF___ they are open to advice. But a tank who keeps losing aggro to me or others on EVERY pack and refuses to use cooldowns and acts b*tchy and reluctant once you try to say something has no place in a team-oriented game. Same for healers who cant even manage the simplest of healing and dps who feel that pushing more than 1 button more than twice per minute is a nuisance. And here's the catch: purposefully lazy players always act like that when you call them out. Cos they know. They just dont care and cba.

[Lambdafish]

When V4.0 comes out, now all of you need to learn the correct WHM behavior Yoshi-P thinks we should be using, or play something else, or just don't don't use the lily system by using more HoT's for overhealing and get yelled at for "not using all the tools in the toolbox."

So yes I.Told.You.So.

The sky is not falling, this doesn't change anything. Players can still play the way they want to. If anything it didn't go far enough and WHM looks like it's being nerfed because they had to make SCH and AST at least equal in healing strength.

While I won't get into the hilarious ignorance that is your viewpoint (as others have already covered that) I will mention that I played PLD through 3.0 and I can tell you that the dev team often have missteps on the design philosophy of certain jobs, don't act like they are the be all and end all of good game design.

3.0 PLD was designed as a physical tank, and it turned out awful, their design intentions did not match up to the content offered within the game. The same is true of WHM in 4.0, their design intentions not only do not match the content offered within the game (looking at the other two healers), AND it goes against the jobs already existing toolkit.

What we have ended up with is a job that has the failings of both 3.0 PLD and pre-buff BRD (i.e. job philosophy that goes against current design, AND mismatched toolkit), which were two jobs that were universally complained about on the launch of Heavensward. Come 4.0, when nobody is playing WHM, and you can't get in a PF group because nobody is accepting WHMs (happened to me on PLD when I was trying to clear bismark and ravana) I will be back to tell you I.Told.You.So.

[MirielleLavandre]

Hi all - OP here ^_^v Thanks for the lively and fun discussion. With the new WHM changes it seems those who remain WHM will have even more opportunity to DPS :P To be clear, if it wasn't in my first post, I think WHM and DPS fall into this structure, personally: If you are on a healer and are comfortable enough with the duty, have the downtime, and have the ability (skill wise) to dps, you should. I always dps whenever I'm on WHM because currently, to be honest, if I didn't I'd cast 1 DS Regen and maybe a medica here and there and then have nothing to do... HOWEVER, my post was for the healers who don't meet the 3 qualifications above -- i.e., not comfortable, have no downtime, and/or don't have the skill. Those are the ones I hated seeing harassed or kicked for not doing enough DPS. 'Comfort', as well, could also go for those who have a theoretical or RP/very strong stance toward 'pure healing' and don't find any DPS of any sort to be fun. Granted, the 'skill' portion is going down a bit with the removal of cleric stance dancing ^^

Regardless, I think we can hopefully all agree that if those 3 qualifications are met (comfort, downtime, skill), then a healer should DPS -- not to contribute 1000% or something, and not to take the place or make up for sub-par dps (though this happens far too often), but just to do SOMETHING in the time you are in the group. Anyways, since seeing the patch I'm going SAM for SB -- already have a set of 260 gear saved for it (came back after a 7 month break and have been using most all my scripture for it) and am almost 90/90 for the kinna... Also - wonder if anyone noticed my thread title is a take on Overwatch Soldier 76 >.> **Mercy main representing** ^_^v

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Zenyatta and McCree main here. o3o At least Zenyatta is actually fun to dps with

[Stormbad]

This has been a circular argument since ARR. And believe it or not, generally both sides of the camp are debating on the same side (minus those who lean extreme towards their side for ignorant reasons). I see most of you are not extreme (thankfully!). I'll outline the circle below.

Healers shouldn't dps
- Variation 1: Why should healers dps when the actual DPS jobs are doing lower damage than us, the DPS are lazy (aka, I do more dps than the dps jobs)!
- Variation 2: Healers won't dps because the tanks are not using CDs and are being very lazy (aka, tanks take too much damage to allow me time to dps)!
- Variation 3: Healers shouldn't be expected to dps if they are new or first time doing a content.
- Extreme point of view: Healers shouldn't dps because it's not their job (the ignorant point of view).

Healers should dps
- Variation 1: Within reason, healers could throw some dps out when the time allows.
- Variation 2: Healer dps is a form of mitigation, mobs die faster means less outgoing damage to heal.
- Variation 3: As healers become more comfortable, healers should be able to know some of the scripted damage (because of reptition of the same dungeon) and able to dps in between.
- Extreme point of view: If healers don't dps at all, they are a bad healer (the opposing ignorant point of view)!

What everyone is arguing about is actually the same thing. Lazy players. Let's look at the problems people have described that applies to all jobs, and not just healers.

People are lazy
- Lazy people only hit a few buttons and like to get carried through content.
- They would rather be doing something else (like watching TV) but need to do their weekly grinds.
- They spend more time typing in their linkshells or fc chat than can be bothered to hit the buttons needed to do their job at the detriment to the group.
- They constantly take avoidable damage because they couldn't be bothered to try.
- They are blissfully ignorant and retort to any suggestions, advice and tips with "you don't pay my sub."
- They don't read their tooltips, some cases, don't read anything at all.
- Lazy people don't understand their skills and how group play even works.
- They probably don't care about anybody but themselves.
- Have zero respect for the other people's time that are stuck in the instance with them.

What we all need to do is come together and fight against the real issue here. First, we need to remove all the extremists points of view on both sides. They weaken their own side's position by giving easy ammunition for the other side to point at how rediculous they are. This lets the more reasonable responses and arguments to be lost in the void because of all the replies.

Second, we really need to draw the line on what is acceptable. To do that, we all need to move more center in this debate and compromise a little with each other. Acceptable DPS for a specific instance. Acceptable usage of CDs and skills. What is acceptable for new players or players who are first time in the instance. We need to ignore the extremes on both ends and find this middlge ground that can allow the majority of us to be satisfied for a specific level of performance for given scenario.

Finally, we need to point our fingers towards lazy/bad/ignorant/selfish players. We don't need to assign them a specific job role. They are bad regardless of the jobs they play. What they do is give the other players a reason to bitch and moan about how bad a (insert job here) who does (insert people are lazy attribute here) then people start arguing defending the job role rather than the actual players. The jobs are innocent, leave them alone! We need to be more vocal ingame and especially defend the good players.