We're all DDs now >.>

[KisaiTenshi]

The rest of your response... is little more than a rant.

You're just cherry picking the argument you want to fight. Look I'll summarize what has been said between the three threads in the general forum and the last 8 years of FFXIV:

A) The Healer is meant to heal, both Yoshi-P and the game's own storyline and even this Hall of the newbie that I didn't even know existed until someone mentioned it say this over and over again:


The only time attacking as a healer even comes up is "When nobody is bleeding", which is something that again, only happens in F.A.T.E's not Dungeon play. Even in V1.0 the emphasis was on healing.

B) The game does not do a good job with it's AI companions, not only can you not "party" them, or other players pets, for the purposes of the tutorial, the game does something that you tend to only see in F.A.T.E's



That being, the AI characters act nothing like players, they stand in avoidable AOE's, all the well telling you to avoid it. Who else does this? Pets and mounts. You could be forgiven thinking that every AI character and monster in the game is exceptionally stupid. This is why "escort missions" are some of the most loathed game mechanics in all games, because the AI is just too dumb to avoid being hit, and is for all intents a pincushion. If SE is listening, how about making high level monsters and humanoids try to dodge player AOE's? How about making pets/companions dodge AOE's?

C) The game is turned based for all it tries to hide it. It is not an Action RPG, it's more entertaining than say SW:TOR (which is turned based, but has a decent storyline, far less dumb companion AI, just boring gameplay), and has outlasted dozens of other MMORPG try-hards that have otherwise better action elements and next to nothing for story.

If the game seriously wanted healers to primarily DPS and only heal 17% of the time like someone earlier in one of the threads mockingly suggested, all the healing would be HoT, and you'd have far more combat tools. That is not the case, everything but Stone has some application in a group battle. In a solo battle, the effects of stone let you keep your distance from the target. Assize, Aero III, Holy are meant to be used for their effects on a group. Repose and Fluid Aura are meant to be used on single targets

Aero II+Aero +Fluid Aura (to knock back the target)+Repose to put them to sleep while the DoT's tick down. While it's asleep heal yourself. When the mob wakes up, hit them with stone to slow them down, and repeat. Do people play this way? Not really, they would rather just tank single mobs. When in group play, you can't use Fluid Aura because it makes the Tank mad having to chase things, and you can't use Repose because the DPS will just keep shooting anyway from auto-attack.

D) If your skills are tools in a toolbox, use the right tools. I reject the argument that "you're not using all the tools", some of these tools are not useful, and counter-productive outside of solo play. Other tools were clearly designed for dungeon play and have no practical use in solo play because there are no crowd-control situations where this is useful (like really, who spam's Holy at a single mob?) At the beginning of V2.0 people used to use sleep effects all the time (in fact the RMT bots were very fond of it on THM, and it was a tell for those) now I never seen anyone use it because as I mentioned above, people won't stop shooting things that are sleeping. More to the point, name a boss that this actually works on. No the entire point of sleep was so you could take down a single target in a multi-target situation while you have no AOE's. If we were really arguing that you should use every tool in the tool box, everyone would still be using sleep and repose as their first tool, not discarding it once they get an AOE attack.

E) The internet spoils everything. So instead of finding the best strategy by yourself through trial and error, or maybe experience from other combat in the game, everyone is all to quick to cite whatever BiS gear and min-max DPS rotation as suggested by the tutorial/video instead of maybe figuring out better solutions or maybe what the developer's intent was. They give you 90 minutes to do a dungeon for a reason. If you can complete it in 12, or solo, that's because you are WAY overgeared for it.

Which brings me to the reason I mentioned 8-mans earlier. For all intents, as the game progresses, people have found ways of skipping entire sections of the game, found ways to use emergent gameplay (like bringing mobs to the cannons, instead of fighting them where they spawn like the developers intended) and SE has said nothing about it. This is another variation where people do things because that's what experience with that duty calls for. I can't tell you how frequently back in V2.0 players would spam these things for tomes, and all the newbies got steamrolled over not knowing why we were running mob trains. But clearly Yoshi-P has a problem with healers being "forced to DPS when they want to heal" by players claiming that the game mechanics require them to. It does not, and it has never.

F) There are players who will refuse to DPS, point blank, because that is not what they signed up for, they signed up to heal, not be a third DPS. Let them play it that way, because again the game does not require that. If you are after the Savage content, you form your own static to play it, because you're not going to train a PUG party, and if you want to farm something out of it, you're going to get stuck training every party that somehow forms after 5 hours. The Savage content also doesn't require you to DPS as a healer, but good luck getting a party together since everyone wants to rush these dungeons instead of learn them. Are you saving 10 seconds, 10 minutes, 30 minutes if you DPS? Who cares, clearly there are people who take the game too seriously and would rather waste time arguing and re-queing than just rolling with what they get in a PUG.

G) There are also healer players who just jump into cleric stance and do nothing but DPS. That's what they do in 8/24 man content because they can get away with it. They can't get away with that in 4-man content, and will get called on it because that "cleric stance" indicator says they aren't healing efficiently or at all. In 8-man and 24 man content, you can just ignore that unless the the lack of healing is causing wipes. Because of the amount of time required to start a raid, people are more likely to put up with a bad healer than they are going to put up with a bad DPS carry.

H) If the player skill mechanics are going to change and be simplified, then all advice out there needs to be thrown away with it. I would not be surprised if they (SE) changed the game mechanics so that everything people learned up to now doesn't work anymore.

Just look at the Red Mage skills descriptions. You are going to be told to do combos to save up for bigger booms . It's very likely the "lilies" for WHM is the same thing. You will be needing to do a fair amount more healing and don't get to do any large DPS booms without it.

[Kitfox]

snip

I don't even know what you're trying to say in that convoluted post. Healer's operate on a simple priority system: Is healing needed? Yes→Heal / No→DPS. That's all there is to it.

This style of play is supported by game mechanics. Because healers have the most powerful heals, they should be the primary healers in the party. But because healing never requires 100% GCD use, those spare GCDs should be used on other useful things, such as DPS, because the goal of all fights in the game is to reduce enemy HP to 0%.

That being said, all decisions in battle operate on that same principle: "Is this the most efficient way of achieving our goal?" That's why people use cannons, don't use Repose, use Regen instead of Cure, DPS instead of standing idle, and so on.

Design intent of abilities is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is function, which forms the meta (most effective tactic available).

[Seoulstar]

snip

They've basically pointed out valid things. The people on this forums overreact to something that truly isn't a big deal. So much to the point they'd rather harass and/or kick the person for something so minor. Thank goodness this forum only represent a small percent of the actual community. Because it's getting childish how people are still arguing over this over discussed topic.

[aleph_null]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50kFN0bnXBQ

While I respect the skills of Xeno and the other people in the group, it's not relevant for this discussion. It was a challenge run (i.e. using unusual strat, gimping your group by bringing 8 tanks), only possible after overgearing and echo, and the healing checks in that fight was manageable even with 1 healer before echo (iirc it was solo healed by a JP healer a few weeks after release). The person I responded to said that tanks should do as much dmg as actual dps jobs.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

You're just cherry picking the argument you want to fight. Look I'll summarize what has been said between the three threads in the general forum and the last 8 years of FFXIV:

A) The Healer is meant to heal, both Yoshi-P and the game's own storyline and even this Hall of the newbie that I didn't even know existed until someone mentioned it say this over and over again:

You were saying?

The entire Conjurer storyline revolves around a character who only wants to heal before having it explained to her there is more to Conjury than merely healing.

Yoshi commented on his personal dislike of Cleric yet immediately followed up that statement by acknowledging a sizable portion of the playerbase likes the DPS meta. Regardless, what he prefers is wholly irrelevant when the actual game mechanics do not accommodate him. If they truly want healers to primarily heal then the onus shifts to the developers to make content where we don't have such significant amounts of downtime or have abilities with the insane potency most healing spells have. It isn't the player's fault for taking advantage of the systems made available.

For someone accusing another of cherry picking, you seem to have selective reading skills. How many times do people have to reiterate they have spent roughly 17% healing and 83% DPSing before you accept perhaps you don't actually appreciate the mechanics of a job you claim to know so well. I purposely emphasised my average duty finder rotation where I heal the tank with, you guessed it, HoTs and very little else. These are not premade groups nor Savage geared tanks. I have had all varieties and none have required even half my attention healing. Taika posted a video of the sheer inactivity she had without DPSing. Miste pointed out having never shared your supposed healer intensity despite being on the same server. Are all three of us extremely lucky or so exceptional we can perform feats no one else can?

Guess so, if we're to believe you.

D) If your skills are tools in a toolbox, use the right tools. I reject the argument that "you're not using all the tools", some of these tools are not useful,

Reject them to your fancy. When you make ridiculous claims like single target nukes and DoTs (Stone III, Combust II) aren't worthwhile DPS. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. As for Holy... you're rambling again. No one even mentioned it nor the effectiveness of crowd control. That is yet another Strawman.

E) They give you 90 minutes to do a dungeon for a reason. If you can complete it in 12, or solo, that's because you are WAY overgeared for it.

I did Xelphtol in under 20 minutes wearing Lore gear the day it released. And I did it in a pug. Tanks pulled the entire room without hesitation. Two brand new dungeons and their ilvls were set to gear outdated over a year prior. Once again, it isn't the players but the game itself allowing us to overgear supposedly new content by default.

Which brings me to the reason I mentioned 8-mans earlier. For all intents, as the game progresses, people have found ways of skipping entire sections of the game, found ways to use emergent gameplay (like bringing mobs to the cannons, instead of fighting them where they spawn like the developers intended) and SE has said nothing about it. This is another variation where people do things because that's what experience with that duty calls for. I can't tell you how frequently back in V2.0 players would spam these things for tomes, and all the newbies got steamrolled over not knowing why we were running mob trains. But clearly Yoshi-P has a problem with healers being "forced to DPS when they want to heal" by players claiming that the game mechanics require them to. It does not, and it has never.

I am going to quote this in its entirety because... what the hell does it have to do with anything? Seriously. Are you being paid per word or something? This neither contributes or references anything anyone has brought up. You're simply off on some odd tangent. The discussion pertained to Healers not being idle and veered towards the sheer lack of healing required in most content. Let's stick to what's relevant, okay?

F) Let them play it that way, because again the game does not require that.

Does this apply to tanks and DPS do? You won't complain about an Ice Mage or a tank that doesn't use CDs, right? After all, by your own admission, dungeons are set to 90 minutes. Therefore, the developers are okay with any clear within that timeframe no matter how slow. Just looking for some consistency.

G) They can't get away with that in 4-man content,

Now I legitimately wonder if you're being willfully obtuse or are just dense. You have what, ten people posting their experiences in random PUG duty finder where they scarcely heal... and you're still clinging to the notion healers simply can't spend all this time in Cleric? I almost want to applaud the stubbornness. I suppose everyone was just lying then? Or perhaps you cannot heal that efficiently and instead of asking for advice you're lashing out against better players.

H) I would not be surprised if they (SE) changed the game mechanics so that everything people learned up to now doesn't work anymore.

Despite my steadfast support for healer DPS, I welcome more dedicated healer checks and less DPS uptime because the argument has never been about damage over healing but the idea to Always. Be. Casting. Increased healing requirements accomplishes that. Alas, until the devs stop making faceroll level content outside 24s, EX and Savage, this debate will never die.

Just look at the Red Mage skills descriptions. You are going to be told to do combos to save up for bigger booms . It's very likely the "lilies" for WHM is the same thing. You will be needing to do a fair amount more healing and don't get to do any large DPS booms without it.

Forcing unnecessarily healing just to trigger White Mage's new mechanics will only kill the job. Look no further than how significantly Paladin suffered due to the sheer amount of magic based bosses. I, again, find it amusing you previous whined about overhealing yet not speculate White Mage will get a mechanic that literally forces them to overheal.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

I find myself in duty finder quite a bit, and I barely see people even ask Healers to dps.

Difference is the data center. I know I run into it all the time: Had a Dun Scaith run go south cause my party kept yelling at the healers to dps at Hollow. I wound up just sitting in a corner and watching as everyone died.

I really do hate clerics stance.

[Ralts]

Difference is the data center. I know I run into it all the time: Had a Dun Scaith run go south cause my party kept yelling at the healers to dps at Hollow. I wound up just sitting in a corner and watching as everyone died.

I really do hate clerics stance.

Another case of "someone hurt your feelings"

[Arrius]

The entire Conjurer storyline revolves around a character who only wants to heal before having it explained to her there is more to Conjury than merely healing.

It evolved around Sylphie that her healing, while powerful, was sapping her own life force for it (and which got her mother killed in the first place), instead of asking the elements for their guidance and use them as her source of power.
While I don't understand how making a connection to the elements suddenly stop draining your own life in healing, Scholars and Astrologians don't even mention the elements and instead draw on their own 'source' to heal, kind of making the said Conjurer 'lesson' fall flat from the lore perspective.

If Sylphie's power didn't had that drawback in the first place, no one would've given a hoot about her pacifist approach.

[Taika]

A) The Healer is meant to heal, both Yoshi-P and the game's own storyline and even this Hall of the newbie that I didn't even know existed until someone mentioned it say this over and over again

You're arguing that the way the game should be played is defined by what developers and in game texts say. But how the game is actually played is defined by how the jobs work in the game, what abilities they have, how battles are designed and so on. If Yoshi P would say "it's ok to just sing as Bard and not do any DPS", no one would follow that (or, if they would, they would be quickly removed from groups). What developers or in game text say does not directly affect the gameplay. Only gameplay design does, so only that is relevant to the argument.

B) The game does not do a good job with it's AI companions, not only can you not "party" them, or other players pets, for the purposes of the tutorial, the game does something that you tend to only see in F.A.T.E's

I don't see how this has anything to do with the discussion?

C) The game is turned based for all it tries to hide it. It is not an Action RPG, it's more entertaining than say SW:TOR (which is turned based, but has a decent storyline, far less dumb companion AI, just boring gameplay), and has outlasted dozens of other MMORPG try-hards that have otherwise better action elements and next to nothing for story.

Same than before: how is this relevant to the discussion or your argument?

If the game seriously wanted healers to primarily DPS and only heal 17% of the time like someone earlier in one of the threads mockingly suggested, all the healing would be HoT, and you'd have far more combat tools.

The better (more effective and optimal) a healer is, the less time they will spend healing. The "issue" in game design is, even with less skillful healer play you aren't required to heal for even 40% of time in most instances.

Aero II+Aero +Fluid Aura (to knock back the target)+Repose to put them to sleep while the DoT's tick down. While it's asleep heal yourself. When the mob wakes up, hit them with stone to slow them down, and repeat. Do people play this way? Not really, they would rather just tank single mobs. When in group play, you can't use Fluid Aura because it makes the Tank mad having to chase things, and you can't use Repose because the DPS will just keep shooting anyway from auto-attack.

Again no idea what you're trying to say here and how this would support your argument.

D) If your skills are tools in a toolbox, use the right tools.

This phrase is correct. Healers should always use the "tool" (skill or skill combination) that is the most beneficial and effective in each situation. When the party members don't need healing or shielding, your most useful tool is a DPS spell.

I reject the argument that "you're not using all the tools", some of these tools are not useful, and counter-productive outside of solo play.

If you're flat out refusing to use your DPS abilities, you are literally not using all the tools available to you, and there's no way you can reject that, since it's the objective truth. It's also very different to not use certain ability because it's not useful (like Repose in 99.99% of situations) or because you don't want to (even when it would be useful). The argument is: a healer should use all of their useful abilities to support their group in most beneficial way in each situation. You're trying to twist it to something different.

E) The internet spoils everything. So instead of finding the best strategy by yourself through trial and error, or maybe experience from other combat in the game, everyone is all to quick to cite whatever BiS gear and min-max DPS rotation as suggested by the tutorial/video instead of maybe figuring out better solutions or maybe what the developer's intent was. They give you 90 minutes to do a dungeon for a reason. If you can complete it in 12, or solo, that's because you are WAY overgeared for it.

Alright so you're going all the way with this "developer intention playstyle" argument. I can appreciate that. But good luck trying to convince the playerbase that they're "playing wrong" if they're not hitting item level sync for every instance they do, or leaving dungeons before 89 minutes have passed. Seriously though, you do realise it's the developers who are releasing these instances (everything else but Savage) intentionally when basically all the players are already overgeared for them?

But clearly Yoshi-P has a problem with healers being "forced to DPS when they want to heal" by players claiming that the game mechanics require them to. It does not, and it has never.

Again, the argument isn't that "the game requires healers to DPS". (Although it does, in situations like Antitower boss dolls when the DDs are bound and the healer and tank will have to DPS to release them.) The argument is: "when a healer is only healing, they will have a lot downtime in most of the content, and as this downtime can be used to support their party with powerful DPS, they should do it". To put it short: "you can be useful instead of being useless, so please kindly do so".

F) There are players who will refuse to DPS, point blank, because that is not what they signed up for, they signed up to heal, not be a third DPS.

Truthfully, they signed up to play WHM, SCH or AST. And DPS is a part of playing each of those jobs in this game. A BRD can't sign up to only DPS or only sing either. An off tank can't just stand in the corner and watch others kill stuff while there's nothing for them to tank. All jobs are expected to use all of their useful abilities.

G) There are also healer players who just jump into cleric stance and do nothing but DPS. That's what they do in 8/24 man content because they can get away with it. They can't get away with that in 4-man content, and will get called on it because that "cleric stance" indicator says they aren't healing efficiently or at all. In 8-man and 24 man content, you can just ignore that unless the the lack of healing is causing wipes.

If no one dies because of the lack of healing, these healers are being the most useful to the group they can. When there are 2 healers in the group, you see both using Cleric Stance from time to time, and no one dies, that is a sign of effective healing and healer play.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Another case of "someone hurt your feelings"

You'll have to explain to me how other dps bitching at healers to dps would hurt a DPS' feelings. Go ahead, take your time, I'll be waiting. <3