PSA - Cleric Stance and vote kicking

[KisaiTenshi]

That illustrates the problem that people are imagining (healers watching netflix or other utterly ridiculous notions of being lazy.)

Notice how the arguments about "hurr hurr, healer doesn't dps, kick em" tend to align with people don't even play the healer class, it's mainly tanks saying this. Y'know the other class that can re-queue in the duty finder rather quickly.

If DPS people are saying this, then they should be the one who is kicked, because that comes across as a demand to be carried. If a tank says it, it's saying that the tank doesn't believe the DPS are competent. If a healer wants to DPS, they can DPS, but if you force them to DPS, then it's going to be a miserable run as you repeatedly wipe, thus being counter-productive.

If you have a static that works well together you can figure out what people are best at, and leave it at that. Making entitled demands of PUG's is just arrogant.

[Greedalox]

If DPS people are saying this, then they should be the one who is kicked, because that comes across as a demand to be carried.

Stop. Implying. People. Are. Suggesting. Healers. REPLACE. DPS.

A healer DPSing does not mean a DPS hits for less, it adds to the group DPS.

You could have 2-4 of the worlds best DPS and you can still contribute DPS as a healer.

[Taika]

That illustrates the problem that people are imagining (healers watching netflix or other utterly ridiculous notions of being lazy.)

People who are talking about kicking healers are talking about healers who are literally idle, jumping or /dancing or /follow on tank. Healers like this:

Notice how the arguments about "hurr hurr, healer doesn't dps, kick em" tend to align with people don't even play the healer class, it's mainly tanks saying this.

It's hard to say anything about which jobs people play based on their forum accounts, but I can say I've been a healer main in this game in 1.0.

If DPS people are saying this, then they should be the one who is kicked, because that comes across as a demand to be carried. If a tank says it, it's saying that the tank doesn't believe the DPS are competent.

This has been said a billion times, but no one is asking healers to DPS to cover for DDs. People are asking healers to DPS because otherwise (apart from specific situations, of course) healers are being much less active than their party members, and that's not fair.

Making entitled demands of PUG's is just arrogant.

It's not entitled to ask for your party members to participate in an equal manner. And the exact same thing (trying to be as active as possible in a meaningful way) is asked from every single party member. The difference is, healer players tend to be the only ones that try to argue why it would be ok to leave a vital part of their toolkit unused. You don't see any "I'm a BRD but I shouldn't be asked to sing/DPS" threads here.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

The difference is, healer players tend to be the only ones that try to argue why it would be ok to leave a vital part of their toolkit unused.

Counterpoint: Assuming healer dps is a vital part of their toolkit, they would have internal mechanics that encourage the player to do it, either by having it feed back directly into their healing or other internal resources. Every other job has their vital aspect covered with internal mechanics which is another reason why tanks are encouraged to dps, and of course dps players have mechanics that revolve around dealing damage, the core aspect of their kit. Considering that, trying to argue healer dps is "vital" is extremely reaching and feels like grasping at straws, when it would be better described as "nice".

Edit: Lovely limits.

You mean like Assize or Energy Drain? Or Holy that works as damage mitigation.

I'll concede SCH Aetherflow/energy drain, but neither Holy or Assize are mechanics, like BotD, Enochian, or Wrath/Abandon, all of which revolve around both dealing damage and wrap back around to support the rest of the job's kit. Holy and Assize would be more akin to a BLM dropping Apoc on a weakened player or a MCH using Rend Mind: Nice to have, but is a utility that doesn't actually feed back into their kit.

[Greedalox]

Counterpoint: Assuming healer dps is a vital part of their toolkit, they would have internal mechanics that encourage the player to do it, either by having it feed back directly into their healing or other internal resources. Every other job has their vital aspect covered with internal mechanics which is another reason why tanks are encouraged to dps, and of course dps players have mechanics that revolve around dealing damage, the core aspect of their kit. Considering that, trying to argue healer dps is "vital" is extremely reaching and feels like grasping at straws, when it would be better described as "nice".

How are you making an absurd argument that Healers don't have DPS attributes when 1/4 to 1/3 of theirs kits are DPS skills?

[Taika]

Counterpoint: Assuming healer dps is a vital part of their toolkit, they would have internal mechanics that encourage the player to do it, either by having it feed back directly into their healing or other internal resources.

You mean like Assize or Energy Drain? Or Holy that works as damage mitigation? :P

I'm describing them as "vital" because the DPS abilities are very powerful and have a huge role in how the healer jobs are played in the game.

[Felis]

You mean like Assize or Energy Drain? Or Holy that works as damage mitigation? :P

I'm describing them as "vital" because the DPS abilities are very powerful and have a huge role in how the healer jobs are played in the game.

If you say healers, do you also have an example for AST (except Gravity spam that eat away the MP)?

[Greedalox]

If you say healers, do you also have an example for AST (except Gravity spam that eat away the MP)?

Gravity. AST get Luminiferous Aether and the Ewer, it's okay to chunk your mana. You don't get to ask for examples while simultaneously exempting viable examples lol.

[Taika]

If you say healers, do you also have an example for AST (except Gravity spam that eat away the MP)?

I was saying I don't see the point as relevant to the discussion. As I wrote, I'm describing them as "vital" because the DPS abilities are very powerful and have a huge role in how the healer jobs are played in the game, not because they have some types of secondary functions. I was just joking that (some) healers actually do have DPS abilities that fill those requirements.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Counterpoint: Assuming healer dps is a vital part of their toolkit, they would have internal mechanics that encourage the player to do it, either by having it feed back directly into their healing or other internal resources. Every other job has their vital aspect covered with internal mechanics which is another reason why tanks are encouraged to dps, and of course dps players have mechanics that revolve around dealing damage, the core aspect of their kit. Considering that, trying to argue healer dps is "vital" is extremely reaching and feels like grasping at straws, when it would be better described as "nice".

Edit: Lovely limits.



I'll concede SCH Aetherflow/energy drain, but neither Holy or Assize are mechanics, like BotD, Enochian, or Wrath/Abandon, all of which revolve around both dealing damage and wrap back around to support the rest of the job's kit. Holy and Assize would be more akin to a BLM dropping Apoc on a weakened player or a MCH using Rend Mind: Nice to have, but is a utility that doesn't actually feed back into their kit.

For ease of transition. Tank mitigation is no different than healer DPS. I'll press Shadowwall/Vengeance when I see a tank buster coming or pull half the room and forget about it. Both roles have reduced complexity regarding damage because they play duo roles and have to split their focus. DPS have dedicated and fairly complex rotations because their only focus is damage. Are you honestly positing the devs intended healers to have as low as 20% activity? If so, it's incredibly poor game design when I'll spend more time cycling through my emotes than I will contributing to the dungeon clear.