Consolidated White Mage 4.0 Feedback Thread

[Semirhage]

Says the one who runs a class that, for gods know what reason, has never received an obvious nerf, even though it's been clearly overpowered since 2.0. To someone who is concerned about a class that, for gods know what reason, has been nerfed pretty continuously since 2.0, in a game that prides itself on buffing classes instead of nerfing them. You do know that WHMs are arguing from past dev actions and not pulling doomsday scenarios out of thin air, right?

[Fernosaur]

Says the one who runs a class that, for gods know what reason, has never received an obvious nerf, even though it's been clearly overpowered since 2.0. To someone who is concerned about a class that, for gods know what reason, has been nerfed pretty continuously since 2.0, in a game that prides itself on buffing classes instead of nerfing them. You do know that WHMs are arguing from past dev actions and not pulling doomsday scenarios out of thin air, right?

Hahahahahahaha.

I main SCH because it's what my raid group needed most recently. I have all three healers and have used them all in raid. My first healer was WHM actually.

To completely counter your point, though, I used to main Paladin throughout all of Gordias and well into Midas. PALADIN. Believe me, no WHM can ever tell a PLD main about nerfs and buffs and lack of viability. WHM stayed in a pretty healthy spot through all of Gordias and well into Midas as well, and even now you aren't a detriment to your party's progression as a WHM, like PLD was through Gordias, and Creator in A12S. Paladins actually held their groups back in Gordias, like, legit kept them from clearing through the first weeks.

The only reason WHM is mostly benched right now is because of the ridiculous buffs Balance got in 3.4, but WHM is more than perfectly capable of clearing every single bit of content that has been released in the game. Before 3.4, yes, WHM was sub-optimal, but you never saw WHM get benched, ever. Some parties even preferred having a WHM in early A8S progression just because the healing checks were pretty heavy for low ILs.

WHM has never been a liability. WHM has never seen as much neglect as PLD has, so please don't bring up that bs with me. Yes, you lost Pro-Shell. Yes, you lost Graniteskin. But neither of those ruined WHM. And it's very obvious why Graniteskin had to go now that we have tanks and DPS with HP pools over 25-40k.

Read all of the above about Paladin, and you'll understand why I think everyone who's saying WHM is ruined for "another" expansion is overreacting and making fools of themselves.

Anyways, having said that, I'm officially out of this thread. But seriously, thanks to you guys I have a low opinion of WHM mains now. The only reason I will not wish that WHM actually gets super shafted is because I like Gemina and I wish her the best.

[Reiryuu]

Salty rant

Why does a job need to sink so low as to become a detriment in order to get fixed or get the attention it needs? Is it not the job of the devs and the community to listen to and provide feedback (respectively) so that this doesn't happen? Yeah, WHM is fine in content that requires healing because that's what the devs made it do-- heal. But that doesn't mean that it's not being eclipsed in utility when it comes down to SCH and AST. Can you honestly tell me, right now, one good reason a group would take a white mage to The Interdimensional Rift when they can have a SCH/AST combo instead? What is it you think a WHM can do that a Scholar and Astrologian can't do while providing just as sufficient healing power as a white mage does?

[Neela]

What is it you think a WHM can do that a Scholar and Astrologian can't do while providing just as sufficient healing power as a white mage does?

up to 6-7k reg ticks. that's a unique thing none of the other healers can provide ^^

edit: oh and of course this:

This is so because unfortunately people will blindly follow the meta if they don't know better =(

WHMs have the best single target dps as well as significantly less ramp up time than SCH.
WHMs have the best aoe burst potential (at the expense of sustainability).
WHMs have the best aoe HPS potential bar none.
WHMs have the biggest aoe range.

[Yuyuka3]

snip

Oh, really now. Then please, tell me why, for example, I barely ever found a duty finder group for stuff like Zurvan willing to take a WHM with them. And I don't mean I joined them and got kicked for underperforming, I literally only found groups searching for SCH/AST teams or only one or the other. Tell me why 90% of all raid statics search AST/SCH instead of WHM. Tell me why I had two groups normally running with AST complain that they are slower than usual in their Alexander Savage kills, even though I gave it my all, pushed out not too shabby DPS, while solo-healing and nobody dying. If WHM isn't a liability, then why does nobody want to take the class for anything but casual or farm content. Before 3.4 WHM was suboptimal? Aren't you confusing something here? Balance and how ridiculous AST buffs were destroyed the class, because why take it when AST is simply better in everything it does. Can WHM clear everything? YES. Is WHM prefered for anything, or has significant advantages over AST or SCH? NO.

And that's exactly what this here is about, and what you apparently don't want to get into your head. WHM complain because we don't get what we need to stay competitive and what literally everyone else in our role has. We instead, once again, loose something were we should win instead. You played PLD? Shouldn't you know best why we are so scared right now, then? As things look like right now, they are screwing WHM over, again, and nothing they showed or said so far implied the opposite. We shouldn't be too worked up because we need to take up Shroud from the job action list? Because now others can manage our MP for us? Do you even know how ridiculous this statement actually is???
Ever since 2.0, bards complained with no end about having to play MP song for healers, because it lowers their dps. Why exactly should this be any different in the future, huh? Give only one good reason why this should change. ONE. I dare you.

And yes, we actually can, because if I count all nerfes and all buffs WHM ever got, nerfs beat buffs at least 6:1. Holy? Got nerfed three times if you count 1.0, too. Stoneskin? Nerfed. Now most likely removed. Protect? Everyone can have it. Cure III? I count that as a nerf since I actually prefered the old trait; which, btw, AST ended up getting. I also preferred the old Medica II, btw, even if that change was more neutral in the end. Oh, right, they also nerfed, and now likely removed, Presence of Mind. I honestly cannot remember all nerfs WHM got because there are simply too many of them for me to keep track.

Also, didn't you want to stay away from this topics?

[Sebazy]

Oh, really now. Then please, tell me why, for example, I barely ever found a duty finder group for stuff like Zurvan willing to take a WHM with them.

Not really a legit point, there is generally always a couple of PFs that only want PLD and WHM for A12S, bads will be bad =(

Tell me why 90% of all raid statics search AST/SCH instead of WHM.

Prove your worth and I suspect they will be happy to let you run WHM. Communicate and ask. If they still flat out refuse, I suspect you're dodging a bullet.

If WHM isn't a liability, then why does nobody want to take the class for anything but casual or farm content.

This is so because unfortunately people will blindly follow the meta if they don't know better =(

because why take it when AST is simply better in everything it does. Can WHM clear everything? YES. Is WHM prefered for anything, or has significant advantages over AST or SCH? NO.

WHMs have the best single target dps as well as significantly less ramp up time than SCH.
WHMs have the best aoe burst potential (at the expense of sustainability).
WHMs have the best aoe HPS potential bar none.
WHMs have the biggest aoe range.

Gordias played to this beautifully, healing A1S and A3S as an AST was horrible, missing someone with helios risked a wipe at times during progression. Creator is the polar opposite and just doesn't require any of the kit WHMs bring to the table. I can think of 1 point in the entire tier where I missed Cure 3's HPS throughput nor were there any points where Medica II's was missed. This is more of a content issue than any intrinsic fault with the job itself.

The elephant in the room here is (the ironically named) balance. As things appear at the moment, 4.0 is going be a godsend for WHMs personal DPS and whilst it's clearly not going to make up for balance in a raid setting, I don't feel that it's a 'liability' at all. If the content deems to reward a WHMs strengths then it'll be right back in the mix.

[Yuyuka3]

nonsense

Reading this makes me want to stab my own eyes out. Let's cover it step by step...

Not really a legit point, there is generally always a couple of PFs that only want PLD and WHM for A12S, bads will be bad =(

So you are telling me my point is not legit because BAD players still want my class? And that should console me why exactly? At the danger of sounding snobby here, I'm a decent player and want to play with other decent players, meaning I won't join bad statics. I'm not that desperate yet to play with scrubs.

Prove your worth and I suspect they will be happy to let you run WHM. Communicate and ask. If they still flat out refuse, I suspect you're dodging a bullet.

In case you didn't read it, what I suspect you didn't: I can't even join these groups because they preclude WHMs to join to begin with. And since you apparently didn't read this, either, I can "prove my worth" as much as I want, I still have groups who let me sub in for someone missint complain about them being slower because I'm a WHM and not a broken-a** AST. But at least I can agree with the "dodging a bullet" part, though sadly there are awfully many bullets I dodged lately. Which is, again, kind of the problem here.

This is so because unfortunately people will blindly follow the meta if they don't know better =(

That's the entire problem here, if you didn't know yet. So you have to help WHM return to the meta or it falls off the edge completely. More personal DPS (if we even get that, and if we can even sustain it with the other changes) won't help even one. bit.

WHMs have the best single target dps as well as significantly less ramp up time than SCH.
WHMs have the best aoe burst potential (at the expense of sustainability).
WHMs have the best aoe HPS potential bar none.
WHMs have the biggest aoe range.

Something something cards something something group DPS >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> personal DPS
Also something something higher heals mean dead s**t if they are unnecessary and if everyone else can dish out sufficient healing as well.

Gordias played to this beautifully, healing A1S and A3S as an AST was horrible, missing someone with helios risked a wipe at times during progression. Creator is the polar opposite and just doesn't require any of the kit WHMs bring to the table. I can think of 1 point in the entire tier where I missed Cure 3's HPS throughput nor were there any points where Medica II's was missed. This is more of a content issue than any intrinsic fault with the job itself.

And that's exactly why WHM needs utility, and why they will likely never design content like Gordias ever again. They want all job compositions to be able to clear content, none to be mandatory, and that simply WON'T EVER HAPPEN if one class can do dead s**t besides healing while all others can, and all others can heal content just as well as the class that can do dead s**t besides healing. There will NEVER BE a second Gordias, because then another class might be left out again because it can't heal enough, which they want to prevent at all costs.

Also, seriously? That old, stupid argument about the 5 yalm more on Medica II? SERIOUSLY? In case you missed it, Cure III got 6... lowest range of all group heals, while arguably being the strongest. And if people are unable to stay in heal range, they deserve to die, end of discussion. Besides, I cleared those exact fights with an AST partner, and she did just fine despite missing those oh-so-important 5 range. Just saying. But maybe my group was just better than yours at positioning and dodging?

The elephant in the room here is (the ironically named) balance. As things appear at the moment, 4.0 is going be a godsend for WHMs personal DPS and whilst it's clearly not going to make up for balance in a raid setting, I don't feel that it's a 'liability' at all. If the content deems to reward a WHMs strengths then it'll be right back in the mix.

Yes, balance is ONE of the many, many problems. NO, more personal DPS for WHM, if that will even be a thing, still doesn't mean dead s**t in the light of what AST can do, and continues to can do. (Also, petition to rename the card UNbalance, since that's what it really does. Or even better, petition to remove it from the game altogether.)

Also, I got the feeling that you are trolling me by now, judging from this... "answer" you gave me...

snip

I'm afraid I fail to see how this is a buff to mp management, though...

snip

And sadly, it will continue to be that way, because some people, devs and players alike, are apparently just too blind to see what's glaringly obvious to everyone with half a brain.
Also, no, pure healer won't work unless they up incoming damage to the point the plus in healing is needed, at which point everyone else will start to b**ch and moan again that WHM is mandatory.

[Docteur_Fluttershy]

It is a buff for WHM mp management since we lose shroud (80 potency 15s) in favor of lucid dream (80 potency 21s), so 2 more ticks for us.
It is a nerf to AST because they go from 80 potency 24s to 80 potency 21s.

Kinda balance the mp regen throughout the healers, and if SCH lose the 20% on aetherflux, maybe WHM wont be the "neverending manahole" he is since 2.0 anymore

[Medeah]

So you have to help WHM return to the meta or it falls off the edge completely.

Sorry but that is a statement that confuses me. A meta is an optimal group composition established by the top tier raiders after a lot of number crushing, and heavily influenced by the design of the endgame content.

As it stands right now, we have 3 healers competing for 2 party slots. Why should X, Y or Z be more deserving of a meta spot?

Ideally, all healers compositions should be equally rewarding, but let's be honest this is wishful thinking. No matter what SE does, one composition will always be deemed better than the others and hence get the meta stamp.

One solution would then be to give all 3 healers the exact same toolkit with a different coat of paint, but that wouldn't be fun at all and people would end up complaining about lack of individuality.

I definitely agree that whm needs some utility but that alone might not guarantee them a spot in the next raid tier. Lets say, for example, that the next meta is very melee dps oriented and that whm get the spell haste (which I've seen being requested by the community and working as a much stronger arrow card). Then whm would be hated by said melee dps because they'd be bleeding tp. And yet, SE would have answered the whm community's concern by giving something unique.

Anyway, just felt like giving my two cents on the matter. /peace

[SpookyGhost]

Ideally, all healers compositions should be equally rewarding, but let's be honest this is wishful thinking. No matter what SE does, one composition will always be deemed better than the others and hence get the meta stamp.

I think a lot of people get confused on this. The goal isn't to have all 3 be exactly equal, but to have the difference between the best and the worst be minimal enough that you can bring either without harming your team by a huge margin. An easy example of what bad balance looks like is PLD in A4S - you're actively making progression significantly harder for your team by not bringing a DRK due to the insane amount of magic damage in that fight. That's what we want to steer clear of, if one job is slightly better than the other in some particular fight then that's not an actual big deal.