PSA - Cleric Stance and vote kicking

[LalaRu]

Whoever is thinking to kick out a party mate, needs weight the time needed to replace a member "in progress" first and continue duty then, vs continue with party as it is.

Whatever the reason for wanting kick out the member is.

[Chessala]

And if I'm tanking in your party and you kick the healer, I'll leave. Thanks for giving me a free ride out of your intolerant pug.

Is that supposed to put pressure? It's funny how people think they can put themselves above others just because of their class choice.
Healer sucks and doesn't want to improve? Kick
Tank sucks and doesn't want to improve? Kick
DPS sucks and doesn't want to improve? Kick

I main healer and I don't get this "I don't dps just cuz", I really don't. Why would I stand around not doing anything? I dps-ed with CS already and I will dps without it. I didn't have a particular beef with CS, I always worked well with it but in terms of game design, it is a catastrophe. That's why I'm glad it is being removed.

Healers that don't use their dps skills just because just want to be lazy and I wish they would unsub. On this note, let me say I refuse to use rescue on bad players that just don't want to bother avoiding AoEs. If you try and are in a genuine pinch, I will do my best to help but I just don't support people being lazy and stupid

Whoever is thinking to kick out a party mate, needs weight the time needed to replace a member "in progress" first and continue duty then, vs continue with party as it is.

Whatever the reason for wanting kick out the member is.

No class should have a free pass just because of queue times. I rather run a dungeon that's 95% done all-over again than support this kind of behaviour. This is exactly why DF is such a pain in the ass, because everyone just ignores all the crap because of queue time.

If you queue for a duty, you should be a valuable addition to the party, not a blockhead with an attitude.

[SpookyGhost]

So what your saying is the gameplay design of healers is bad? They should have more engaging healing gameplay? I agree with you.

Not the person you were quoting (obv), but I agree w/ this.

However, regardless of how we wish the healing in this game worked, healers are currently massively overpowered in the healing department. It is very, very hard to put a healer in a position where they actually have to be constantly healing. Even in that situation you can typically get at least some DPS in. As an example, lets say your tank pulls from the start of the dungeon to the boss gate (which is basically impossible in current dungeons) and then proceeds to pop no CDs. As a WHM you can Swiftcast Holy -> Aero 3 -> Holy -> Holy -> heal a bunch and yell at the tank. As an AST you can Celestial Opposition -> Gravity. SCH requires slightly more prep time but in the absolute least you can get off 1-3 DoTs and Bane them. WHM and AST essentially have no excuses even in the most dire of situations and SCH is only slightly more difficult.

Honestly, like, I give healers who don't DPS a free pass all the time because I just can't be bothered. But it is seriously offensive to me that I'm having to actually pay attention to the game and keep my GCD rolling while they literally just stand there and every so often use a GCD. I can understand at lower levels where you're still getting used to everything, but the closer you get to level cap the less it becomes acceptable. I've never yelled at a healer for not DPSing and I probably never will, but I completely empathize with those that do. It's just a game and etc etc but it's a bit horrible to expect your team to do all the work while you watch Netflix - not exactly the most team-player attitude to have in an MMO, a genre defined by working as a team.

Also if you have a disability tell the group that you have it, we can't be expected to just brush every lazy healer off because they might have a disability. That would be ridiculous and would give a free pass to everyone in every role to play badly.

[ErryK]

So what your saying is the gameplay design of healers is bad? They should have more engaging healing gameplay? I agree with you.

That's not what I said.

But I am going to agree that healer potencies are ridiculous compared to the content's lack of damage, HOWEVER, most of the content is tuned towards newbies, not veterans who've been playing since the inception of ARR, and even then, with the lowest iLv, you can still do it and deal damage too. The only place you'll find some degree of challenge for healers is extreme primals, and mostly savages. I mean, it was really difficult to do A4S at item level cap in 3.0, that's what you want, right? Go look at Elysium's A4S kill and look at how the healers are mostly healing, and occasionally doing damage, because your post tells me "healers are the problem, not the content", but it's the other way round, in fact.

But either way, if you're looking for more ways to heal, they're on their way, but if you're looking for more opportunities to heal, just don't bother healing someone who's at 90% HP, and heal them when they're at 20% or 10% even, there's your healing challenge, because as far as Yoshi is concerned, 4.0 is supposed to ease the disparity between players, so newbie healers can have just as much of an easy time as veteran healers. So from what I can assume, we're going to be getting the same frequency of damage as we do now, which isn't all that much.

[Crysten]

I dont care about that changes. lol

I still WONT dps when I play as HEALER in dungeons groups!

Why people think healer classes have to do 2 jobs and tank and dps classes only do 1 job..?

Once DPS's or Tanks has the same healspells healer has, only then I will DPS as healer in groups too! o_o

I cannot believe even after the announcements players like this will still stubbornly sit on their ass and do nothing for 80% of a normal dungeon.

[LalaRu]

...No class should have a free pass just because of queue times. I rather run a dungeon that's 95% done all-over again than support this kind of behaviour. This is exactly why DF is such a pain in the ass, because everyone just ignores all the crap because of queue time.

If you queue for a duty, you should eb a valuable addition to the party, not a blockhead with an attitude.

Whoever wants make a personal crusade against all and everyone they think are "unworthy" of running a duty, your choice.

Lemme then know how you were able to differentiate someone playing "bad" because bad attitude or any kind of disabilities. Maybe you don't even bother why this is happening: that player is "bad" so lets get rid of that scum. Way to go.

/notsigned.

[Chessala]

Maybe you don't even bother why this is happening: that player is "bad" so lets get rid of that scum. Way to go.

/notsigned.

I find it funny that you jump at my throat for judging people without reason while you judge exactly how I will determine something like that?

If a player is obviously not performing well 8whatever that means for everyone is their own choice), I will try to engage with them. I'll try to talk and if it is an obvious lack of knowledge, I'll try to help them. However, if the reply is "shut up and do your own job" or "it's my sub, I play the way I want to", i think we can agree it's an attitude problem.

Just to calm your racing heart, no, I do not make snarky comments when i try to talk. I hope that clears this up.

[Belhi]

/snip

Yeah I am pretty much in the same boat as you. I am not going to make an issue in a pug unless it's clear we aren't going to clear at which point I usually just vote dismiss. Getting hissy over it is too much hassle. When you know what your doing dpsing is relatively simple. Infact its probably the only reason I have found dungeons passable to heal usually. I just recognise there is an issue which doesn't seem to be being addressed.

That's not what I said.

But I am going to agree that healer potencies are ridiculous compared to the content's lack of damage, HOWEVER, most of the content is tuned towards newbies, not veterans who've been playing since the inception of ARR, and even then, with the lowest iLv, you can still do it and deal damage too. The only place you'll find some degree of challenge for healers is extreme primals, and mostly savages. I mean, it was really difficult to do A4S at item level cap in 3.0, that's what you want, right? Go look at Elysium's A4S kill and look at how the healers are mostly healing, and occasionally doing damage, because your post tells me "healers are the problem, not the content", but it's the other way round, in fact.

But either way, if you're looking for more ways to heal, they're on their way, but if you're looking for more opportunities to heal, just don't bother healing someone who's at 90% HP, and heal them when they're at 20% or 10% even, there's your healing challenge, because as far as Yoshi is concerned, 4.0 is supposed to ease the disparity between players, so newbie healers can have just as much of an easy time as veteran healers. So from what I can assume, we're going to be getting the same frequency of damage as we do now, which isn't all that much.

I was being a smartass.

My main point is having one aspect being boring doesn't justify the other being slightly less boring. The fact that either is boring is an issue.

I think the issue with fights is a mix of the two. WoW went through something similar in the past though they handled it badly to start with. Simply put not being able to heal everyone to full in two spells means some throught and time has to go in to prioritising what heals you use. You develop a triage system where your having to manage which heals you use, who you let be damaged for a bit while you deal with someone else and how you work additional issues like debuffs and fight mechanics into the situation. Of course that doesn't help if there isn't enough damage. I get having a soft learning curve but it is actually pretty uneven and the talk about dps just confuses the issue for a lot of new healers. Its too much all or nothing with nothing in the middle.

No class should have a free pass just because of queue times. I rather run a dungeon that's 95% done all-over again than support this kind of behaviour. This is exactly why DF is such a pain in the ass, because everyone just ignores all the crap because of queue time.

If you queue for a duty, you should be a valuable addition to the party, not a blockhead with an attitude.

Its a randomised grouping device in an open public forum. I get standing for principles but if your chose to use DF rather than play with friends it means rolling the dice and accepting some times your going to get a bad roll. No amount of principle is going to change that.

[Wyldkat99]

While I didn't get to watch all of the Live letter yesterday before work. Did YoshiP Say anything about retracting earlier statements on Healers? That is that dungeons and other instances not being designed around Healers dealing damage, or that healers should deal damage if they feel like they can? If not then understand that if you kick a healer for not DPSing or doing enough damage in your opinion, you most likely will get suspended for abusing the kick system. I suspect that SE might even be a bit more touchy about kick abuse in SB as YoshiP has stated repeatedly they want to make the game more friendly for new players, and the community has become rather hostile to those who aren't preforming at a certain arbitrary level.

[Aquaslash]

That can fall under difference in play styles