PSA - Cleric Stance and vote kicking

[Hamada]

I really don't get this argument. healer's shouldn't have to dps. if it's to make or break a dps check... something's wrong. if they have nothing to do tank and dps are topped off sure... do a little dmg. if it makes the dng faster ok... boss dies faster... ok.... I'm dpsing and i'm all out ofmana to heal... *blink blink* say what now? both sides are right... I've played every role... I've seen runs that makes me wonder... the hell is everyone doing? dps spam... now i have less then 20% mp and now i have to heal spam... NOT ENOUGH MP CAPTAIN..... that's the the whole point that some of these people are trying to say.. some can't juggle, i've died as a tank because a healer is to focused on dpsing.. to the point they don't have the mp to heal me... So you lot can dps as a healer... you know how to juggle your usage of mp to adequately manage dealing dmg versus healing... good for you.... how low do you let your tanks health go again before you balk and forget cleric's stance is on? Yes I know it's getting changed in SB. but the fact remains... Tunnel vision is a problem. i'd rather have a healer who's more focused on healing then one who forgets the rest of the party is there and causes a wipe.

This is a problem with people that can't get a full picture and tell people what is wrong. If a healer is running out of mp, it is a HIGH CHANCE there is a DPS problem. A good example was last week when my friend took whm to expert. Every pull she OOM, and she knew it was because the brd was very bad. (wide volley spam, no dot spread, so on) So after OOM on the first boss she said ballad me, and spamed holy(trash ofc) and such more to make up for the brd's lack of DPS.

If a healer is running out of MP it can be for the following reasons:
Tank is bad/ undergeared/ ilevel bypassing/ not using CDS/ standing in too much bad
DPS are not doing enough damage/ilevel bypassing/ using wrong rotations/ not using buffs/improper secondaries
Healer overhealing/ healer overdpsing (holy overlaping stuns can be an issue, if you do not space it out so monsters have the full stun effect, then people take more damage then need be)

A good healer should be able point out those problems, work out a solution, or back off on dps.

Healers need to DPS if you are trying world first, other then that no they do not need to, but I will find it insulting just to stand there doing a single action 20 sec-1 min. I done A1S farming as a solo healer where cleminty here and there and selene was the only healing going on.

[CertifiedToast]

I think you just highlighted that the game mechanics for healing is broken. If a healer can solo heal A12S and still be dpsing then clearly there isn't enough healing mechanics in the game to support the game play properly.

I want to highlight this. This right here is the main issue with the problem. There isn't enough going on in a instance that makes a healer be a healer. They are just a DPS with support utility.

Until the core mechanics to encounters change, that is all "healers" are going to be. I find it sad that tanks can pretty much sit there getting beat on by a boss out of it's tank stance and a regen and fairy heal is all that is needed to keep them topped off until a tank buster. Or stand in the middle of an entire sections worth of monsters out of tank stance with just a couple of light HoT's/Fairy and some defensive CDs.

I DPS when I heal as well. Because there is literally nothing else to do. It is wasteful to just stand around. I honestly don't like it. I would prefer to have more challenge to healing that would require me to pay more attention to actually healing.

[Faliandra]

It's a bit hard to explain, but : There is nothing rewarding for them to do that. You can clear the dungeon maybe a bit faster, yes, but the spells themselves don't have the weight of 'that should hit those guys'.

Just because you've never seen a good dps healer or fail to do so yourself doesnt make your statement true.

My highest parse in Baelsar's wall was 1800ish overall dmg as a WHM...
And my SCH friend can pull similarly high numbers. AST may be a bit lower there but will still manage to dish out a significant amount.

the average random dps you get usually manage to deliver 1200-1800.
A real nice DPS will do 2500-2800ish.


Healer DPS is extremely rewarding and when done properly (it's +1 dps,do the math), will speed up your run by a lot.

[Fyce]

It's a bit hard to explain, but : There is nothing rewarding for them to do that.

This is completly false.
Zurvan may now be a meme, but it's still one of the best example of why Healer's DPS is important: skipping Soar drastically increase the success rate of the run. And skipping that mechanic is quite hard to do when healers aren't DPSing. Besides, during P1, there's absolutly nothing to heal if the other party members don't stand in poop. Absolutly. Nothing.

Zurvan isn't the only fight where this is happening. In fact, pretty much all fights become harder the longer they are. So, in short, if you just stand there, doing nothing while everyone is doing their best, you are actually making the fight harder, and increase the chances of not beating it.

This is the reward: higher chances of success.

Besides, if you can't understand that healers, in this game, are not designed to simply be Cure bots, then it's time to stop playing healers, because you drag everyone down.
Or just quit the game entirely, I don't think we'll miss people with that lazy, entitled, and egoistic mentality.

[Xlantaa]

If the players who watched the Live Letter and want kick Healers that don't DPS, they heard what Yoshi P said. He said if a healer don't want to DPS is ok. And it is not the first time he said it. So, please, stop with this. Heal DPS is a option, not a obligation, and that won't change on Stormblood.

[Hamada]

If the players who watched the Live Letter and want kick Healers that don't DPS, they heard what Yoshi P said. He said if a healer don't want to DPS is ok. And it is not the first time he said it. So, please, stop with this. Heal DPS is a option, not a obligation, and that won't change on Stormblood.

It depends on the situation...
If a healer is needing to heal frequently because 2-3 people are bad then there is nothing that can be done (esp if they ignore advice)
If a healer is not dpsing because of some old mindset healers should not have to dps because they are a healer and casting 1 spell a minute, yes they are getting kicked (after they keep doing that when asked to chip in ofc) Do you see a tank hitting flash once a minute? do you see DPS hitting one button a minute?

[Kacho_Nacho]

It's a bit hard to explain, but : There is nothing rewarding for them to do that. You can clear the dungeon maybe a bit faster, yes, but the spells themselves don't have the weight of 'that should hit those guys'.
*snippers*

Arrius, I feel you are downplaying the contribution you are making when you cast a damage spell. Perhaps it's because you see damage dealers doing more damage with their abilities.

However, what you call "clearing the dungeon a bit faster" is in fact, a means of insuring mobs are doing less damage to your party. Those Aeros add up to a whole lot less healing you have to do.

[Nestama]

DPSing as a healer is optional, but if no one is taking damage for 5-10 seconds, why not toss out a few DPS spells? It's not like you have to worry about healing in Cleric Stance any more. Heck, a Holy amongst trash mobs in a massive pull is REALLY good and gives both Healers and Tanks a 5-3-1 second break.
Take Dun Scaith's final boss. There's an entire phase of no damage happening. Perfect place for a healer to DPS... and I have seen Healers just stand around and do nothing (sometimes healing when no one needs it because no one is taking any damage. y u do dis).

[Arrius]

At the end of the day isn't that why Tanks/Healers and DPS do damage? You don't need fancy secondary ailments to have weight to damage.

But the tanks and dps also bring their own non-diminishing debuffs with them, which kind of boosts their utility massively with certain other jobs. Slash debuffs increase war/ninja/pld damage or piercing debuffs for drg/bard.
Healers get debuffs that are of very limited use against trash, and bosses are always immune to the effects with the exception of virus and disable which come with either a long cooldown or a immunity timer.

So why not throwing the healers a bone to more consistant debuffs? It'll incentivize them more to use their spells.

Just because you've never seen a good dps healer or fail to do so yourself doesnt make your statement true.

As a matter of fact, I do know of a few good healers of mine and we did run frequently with very fast clear times. However, you need to remind yourself that SE did nerf Holy in their potency, repeated themselves that healing dps is not being factored in at high difficulty content, shattered the str>all meta on tanks around 3.2 and are making vit/strength accessories limited by class.

This community is obsessed with damage, and SE will continue to wrench against that, no matter if you like it or not.

This is completly false.
Zurvan may now be a meme, but it's still one of the best example of why Healer's DPS is important: skipping Soar drastically increase the success rate of the run. And skipping that mechanic is quite hard to do when healers aren't DPSing. Besides, during P1, there's absolutly nothing to heal if the other party members don't stand in poop. Absolutly. Nothing.

Zurvan isn't the only fight where this is happening. In fact, pretty much all fights become harder the longer they are. So, in short, if you just stand there, doing nothing while everyone is doing their best, you are actually making the fight harder, and increase the chances of not beating it.

This is the reward: higher chances of success.

Besides, if you can't understand that healers, in this game, are not designed to simply be Cure bots, then it's time to stop playing healers, because you drag everyone down.
Or just quit the game entirely, I don't think we'll miss people with that lazy, entitled, and egoistic mentality.

Frankly, if they would've known that Soar was skippable in that way, they might have changed it accordingly before the patch did hit live.
And healers will remain healers and not support dps, unless SE tells them otherwise, not the community.

[Faliandra]

As a matter of fact, I do know of a few good healers of mine and we did run frequently with very fast clear times. However, you need to remind yourself that SE did nerf Holy in their potency, repeated themselves that healing dps is not being factored in at high difficulty content, shattered the str>all meta on tanks around 3.2 and are making vit/strength accessories limited by class.

This community is obsessed with damage before all, and SE will continue to wrench against that, no matter if you like it or not.

Oh? Last time I checked, they said something about being able to dps freely without cleric stance and removing accuracy requirements, which makes
it even easier to dps as a healer. Also, Holy got nerfed because it was ridiculously OP. And it still is amazing even now.

No matter if you like it or not.