Suggestion as to how to get people to become healers.

[Shurrikhan]

1: Healers are never inactive when monitoring hp of players to keep them alive, especially extreme primal fights where everything consists of dodging, aoe bursts, constantly sprinting for limit break boosts, buffing etc. I suppose that just means your view of "nothing" is very different when support is generally something.

2: no idea what you said.

3: also full trinity could have several meanings as well. Tanks can still absorb damage but dps could stay non important to them as they are just damage sponges, dps is dps, and heals i heals. Its not that complicated.

1. These are all done by every other role in addition to making use of every GCD. Looking around to see what you should be doing next is not throughput. This should be done between GCDs...

2. "Specifically apportioned compositions" = parties that have a specific ratio of roles. What you've suggested would seem to entail that should any group fail to meet the 1:2:1 ratio, then the design of any and all content should punish them immensely. Yet, I cannot imagine how that would be doable without simply punishing the lowest denominator of player long before punishing specific compositions, unless, again, simultaneous output for non-DPS roles (mitigation+dps and restoration+dps) is crippled AND DPS and non-DPS needs both made constant. And I'm certainly not convinced that would make the game more interesting.

3. How does that in any way make the game more interesting, is what I wonder. It's precisely BECAUSE tanks and healers both have means of more direct throughput that they are capable of working off each other in interesting ways. Remove those and there is no choice, no variation. Mitigation becomes DPS; DPS becomes mitigation; caution can become speed; and recklessness can achieve safety. The fluidity of any two extremes via two means of output is what most allows for every role (though DPS to a lesser degree, perhaps) to take an active part in strategy. It allows for variation, risk, and reward.

Admittedly, tuning is less than ideal in much of FFXIV, often too greatly babying poor players to the point that good players' role-alignment feels awkward, but to hamper any meaningful form of variance or reward for increased output (be that by gear, skill, or risk) may as well be a cardinal sin in gaming. It has certainly bled the raid scene in WoW: Legion, and their means of restricting gameplay (more alike to original T7 or T7S in that the fights themselves didn't allow for anyone to go to into that next stage of phase-pushing) was far less insulting than any "full trinity".

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

Reading over things a bit, what I take from it is that healer DPS is effectively a situational thing, and far from the absolute mandatory thing you MUST do or you're a bad healer and a detriment to your team.

In a situation where you're all minimum ilvl or what have you, yes, everyone has to push a little harder, and that's how it should be. No contesting that. But as the game encourages and practically pushes you to rapidly gear up to take on challenges (in order to rapidly gear up to take on challenges. . .) few groups go in with the bare essentials. World/server firsts do, and they have the coordination and skill to do so, but if every player and every group were on that level, the world/server first races would be a lot more competitive.

As it stands, I stand by the idea that you do what works for your team overall rather than chasing/sticking to far-from-concrete metas. I in no way condone a healer simply doing nothing in downtime (not even in PvP. Between skirmishes, heal and shield your team. Ready up for the next fight), but I also don't believe removal or alteration of one wonky skill will encourage that either. All in all, we need to really stop doomsaying and being so inflexible on things and wait for solid answers in 7 days.

Changes are coming. Maybe ones you wanted, maybe ones you didn't. Keep an open mind and be ready to adapt or fall behind.

[Stormbad]

What I have to say to Yoshi P's statement is as blatent as it can get. If you want me to dps as my healer during a new savage or Extreme fight, then I'll make YOU Heal it and I'll dps instead. Simple and Clean.

I've done this inn BCOB when relevant. I was a dragoon main and switched to WHM. I agree, I'll heal and you can DPS but your dps better be more than mine when I was dps (relatively based on job) or else I'd still be complaining.

[Sebazy]

Not everyone is a Worlds First wannabe.

Oh absolutely agreed, give it a month's worth of gear upgrades in a new tier and by that stage it's more a case of making the DPS's lives a little easier rather than any kind of hard requirement.

The key here is to understand that this whole deal revolves round a bunch of compromises.

If I took your stance with the people I raid with and the timeframe I raid in, I'd likely find myself in even more of a casual scrub status than I am already (And my reputation and experience already gets me a fair degree of leniency, it only takes a glance over my logs to appreciate that) If it were my choice I'd be focusing entirely on the healing and taking along 5 DPS instead, that doesn't work during progression though so I just find the best DPS SCH I can and go with that. There's my compromise.

The community would do well to find a happy compromise where healer DPS is appreciated and rewarded, but not unnecessarily expected or required particularly when doing so may actually be making matters worse.

This thread needs to appreciate that the raiding experience is *VERY* different depending on a whole number of factors, as you state yourself, not everyone rushes into savage the moment it's out. Rather it's a very broad sliding scale. A midcore team with weaker DPSers may still have to call upon healer DPS to clear certain speed bumps whereas a casual team with decent tome gear and a couple of above average DPS players will likely never need it at all. Viewing this whole debate as a black and white 'but yoshida said we don't need it!' or 'I did A3S whilst barefoot in the snow both ways!' deal will never work either way. Compromise pls <3

Lastly, and perhaps most importantly of all, Yoshida and his class design team need to figure out a compromise that gives high tier healers something to do in typical content whilst not overloading more timid and lower skilled players in the process.

Reading over things a bit, what I take from it is that healer DPS is effectively a situational thing, and far from the absolute mandatory thing you MUST do or you're a bad healer and a detriment to your team.

Nailed it.
Ps my head hurts, owww =(

[dragonseth07]

A midcore team with weaker DPSers may still have to call upon healer DPS to clear certain speed bumps whereas a casual team with decent tome gear and a couple of above average DPS players will likely never need it at all.

Yeah, but when everyone has better gear, there's MORE time to DPS. It's less needed, but at the same time, there's more time for it, because you need to heal less.

I won't carry lazy players, regardless of role. Healers don't get a pass just because their icon is green.

[Sebazy]

Yeah, but when everyone has better gear, there's MORE time to DPS. It's less needed, but at the same time, there's more time for it, because you need to heal less.

I won't carry lazy players, regardless of role. Healers don't get a pass just because their icon is green.

I could argue that during the learning process, those windows are more often than not being used to raise people and get the attempt back on track

It's definitely a fair point, but not all groups will have healers with the presence of mind and awareness (Or self recording habits!) required to spot these windows in the first place. it could be laziness but it could also be nerves or inexperience, both of which are highly probable during the learning process.

[Mycow8me]

Not everyone picked the green icon to be a quasi healer either regardless of the gear treadmill in this game. That's why I think healers need other things to manage like an expansive buffer toolkit to go alongside recasting DoTs. Of course spamming the highest DPS spell tier at any given time could be more or less DPS depending on the situation but at least the healer has more choices available to them.

[Hamada]

Yeah, but when everyone has better gear, there's MORE time to DPS. It's less needed, but at the same time, there's more time for it, because you need to heal less.
I won't carry lazy players, regardless of role. Healers don't get a pass just because their icon is green.

agreed

Reading over things a bit, what I take from it is that healer DPS is effectively a situational thing, and far from the absolute mandatory thing you MUST do or you're a bad healer and a detriment to your team.

Yes and no, lets take low level for example since people do not take a lot of damage there. People can be sitting there casting a heal every time someone takes 10 points of damage. OFC that is from being new but that is not a good healer because no one is dying. YOU ARE A BAD healer if you are sitting around doing nothing frequently, regardless of content. Do you see tanks flashing once and going afk? Do you see DPS hitting one action then afk? healers are not special that gets a free pass.

[Kurogaea]

So basically good dps do the most work while bad ones can stay hidden, or making me lose the ability to carry DPS in expert and the like, ok i guess, not something I agree with but whatever. Personally I do not like heal only tanks that use no CD and act like a DPS with large mp, and I feel that would be too much of the expected if some people get their way of having heal only healers by making stuff more heal intensive to the likes of salvage.

What? bad ones stay hidden? I get the part about carrying dps, but if you NEED to carry dps then your group already has a problem and if you really wanted carry them, just use a DPS.

Not to mention every dungeon in this game is heal heavy. Nothing is soloable (aside from playing as the broken Warrior) while synched. You NEED healers. While your probably not healing the whole time, your buffing for oncoming attacks. Not every second has to be granted dps. -_-

[technole]

Yes I agree that it'd be rather boring if players are only able to play one way, but we are already forced to play one way because we can't do extreme fights with all healers, or all dps, or all tanks. The class with a big ass sword can't do as much damage as a guy who punches for Christ's sake. There is very little variation when it comes to these things. If they didn't do it half-assed from the start (cross-class system), healers wouldn't be getting the shit stick for so long and being forced to dps. instead they'll be forced to do what they chose, heal. In otherwords, there already is NO variation. Right now where in an awkward state of "OUR DPS SUCKS ITS, -everyone but the dps- FAULT"!

A12S tanks-only clear
A12S class only clear
A12S class only clear (no echo)