Suggestion as to how to get people to become healers.

[Ama_Hamada]

I am convinced people on average to the minimum effort required to do stuff. Maybe they are a good player in salvage to get the gear they got but come dun I cringe at the novice mistakes and lack of effort in rotations in expert. It is not funny to see i270 to be out dps by a i235 dps or a healer in AoE situations. So all these ideas of skill checks to make people better does not work. It needs to scalemore linearly then it does now for it to work, but that idea in ffxiv, does not exist currently. I do not know if they where carried in Savage, or if they are simply putting no effort in causal content, but it is annoying to see at the least and makes the feel the gear went to waste.

The containment bay P1T6 my 2 friends saw today really makes me wonder about the general skill level of players. So my friend on whm takes hate before one of the phase shift of adds (this is normal mode mind you with a tank with 270 weapon and the other 275, all she really checked for seeing this) She used shroud of saints purely because of the hate issues and said so in chat that she used it for hate issues and now is not free to use it when needs mp. So during the add phase they kill them, she had some hate on the adds during that too, rotating from dps and healing. When Sophia reappeared but still was phased out she noticed the red circle meaning she had rank A hate again and shroud was down. She said in party, I have rank A hate, and she tanked it for like 30 seconds before dying to hate no provoke, then after she died, she had to watch the other whm, despite shrouding when able, have very high rank 2 hate, very close to overtaking the tanks.

So with all the warnings... why is it so hard for a tank to use PROVOKE???????!!!!!

Then after that, in expert, my friend was going oom because a brd was doing very sub par dps and was trying her best to make up for the DPS loss and asking for ballad because they where not doing much. So much carry, no coms, lol.

Then another situation that a friend shown me off tweeter, a WHM did not have medica set on their hot bar and used cure II 9 times, guessing they left the party due to wipes because of the clueless WHM in containment bay S1T7 Extreme

Now do you understand why the Dev team does not factor healer DPS? It has nothing to do with "Dev team did not intend for healers DPS in DFs" it has more to do with, if they did factor DPS in DFs, it would make the game too hard for most people, esp when people can't even hit PROVOKE!!!!!!!!!! in a DF with TWO tanks in it, well, really none, since my WHM friend did more tanking then the 2 tanks.

I do not mind people have a hard time with it because they are new and not sure how people take damage, and not sure when the down time is. My issue with people is those that go "Dev team did not intend healers to DPS so I am only going to heal" That is just pure lazy and drawing conclusions that is based on fallacy.

I'm not all for removal of cleric stance, but it makes the most sense that healers shouldn't HAVE to dps to make a group win anything. If 4 dps classes need help from a healer to push dps I think they're doing something wrong.

My thoughts on the trinity is that they should've just went full on trinity from the start. removing it now would be wierd, though PvP'ers are used to it by now. (no cleric stance)

They took out cleric stance out of PvP because they do not know how to balance PvP !!!!!! So it was the easy way out of dealing with mass holy problem instead of actually trying to balance things. (Hint, most of our PvE abilities is not suited for PvP)

These are not good arguments for why healers should not have to DPS,, if that is the case, I do not want Tanks to be OP in DPS as well.

Also going with the post below, can you explain why it is the healers job to carry someone (spamming heals on a lazy/pure dps tank, or making up DPS of low skilled DPS? I am not talking about helping a little, I am talking about having literally double of a DPS as a healer where the DPS is in i270 gear.)

[Shurrikhan]

I'm not all for removal of cleric stance, but it makes the most sense that healers shouldn't HAVE to dps to make a group win anything. If 4 dps classes need help from a healer to push dps I think they're doing something wrong.

My thoughts on the trinity is that they should've just went full on trinity from the start. removing it now would be weird, though PvP'ers are used to it by now. (no cleric stance)

Could you please explain:
(1) why a given role should be allowed to be inactive for a vast part of a fight
(2) why only specifically apportioned compositions should be capable of doing even light content
(3) what a "full trinity" is (Should tanks be moving, highly sticky walls with no attacks as not to step on the DPS's toes and all others be one-shotted by any direct attack, and everyone be constantly drained of health so that they're not self-sufficient and the healers must constantly heal--or otherwise macro a healing button and a follow command and leave the room since any truly constant healing would also be free of dynamics?)

I keep seeing this term, but I have yet to understand it or hear reference to an actual example of it.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

They don't, but that wasn't the point. The point was that if people truly managed to overcome said content and the supposed skill checks by getting better, they would in all likelihood retain that skill in all future content, unless they took long breaks in between to unlearn things. If Nidhogg had taught you how to rotate CDs, you won't unlearn that in the following dungeons, you'll use that to your advantage in the following dungeons.
Therefore, on average, the player skill beyond those points should be considerably higher regardless of how the content afterward is tuned. If it is not, the player either took a break or didn't actually get better in the first place.

Difficulty curve is unrelated to that. The idea of a difficulty curve is to have the difficulty of the content keep up with the learning curve of the individual in order to keep it engaging. The issue there is that the learning curve of individuals is, well, individual, so the difficulty curves would have to be as well to serve their function. Hence, games sometimes try to employ
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynami...ulty_balancing

How to do that in MMOs... I personally don't have the faintest. But it's tangential to the topic at best, so /huh.

Which in and of itself is the fundamental problem. Currently, good players can easily carry bad ones through a large portion of content. A Black Mage pulling 700 DPS in Balesar's Wall? Whatever. It will take longer but it's hardly challenging. A mere two weeks after release, Alex normal could be done with 2-3 DPS literally afk. Although not the only solution, this simply shows content is tuned far too low or that our jobs are far too powerful. Honestly, I find it a bit silly healers can press two buttons at most and jump someone from 1 HP to full health or that tanks can mitigate practically everything with just a single cooldown while in DPS stance. And that's for the hardest content in the game. At the moment, we don't even have a curve. Leveling dungeons, which should be where players learn, are harder than most Expert. That eliminates any incentive for self improvement.

[Kurogaea]

Could you please explain:
(1) why a given role should be allowed to be inactive for a vast part of a fight
(2) why only specifically apportioned compositions should be capable of doing even light content
(3) what a "full trinity" is (Should tanks be moving, highly sticky walls with no attacks as not to step on the DPS's toes and all others be one-shotted by any direct attack, and everyone be constantly drained of health so that they're not self-sufficient and the healers must constantly heal--or otherwise macro a healing button and a follow command and leave the room since any truly constant healing would also be free of dynamics?)

I keep seeing this term, but I have yet to understand it or hear reference to an actual example of it.

1: Healers are never inactive when monitoring hp of players to keep them alive, especially extreme primal fights where everything consists of dodging, aoe bursts, constantly sprinting for limit break boosts, buffing etc. I suppose that just means your view of "nothing" is very different when support is generally something.

2: no idea what you said.

3: also full trinity could have several meanings as well. Tanks can still absorb damage but dps could stay non important to them as they are just damage sponges, dps is dps, and heals i heals. Its not that complicated.

[Ama_Hamada]

1: Healers are never inactive when monitoring hp of players to keep them alive, especially extreme primal fights where everything consists of dodging, aoe bursts, constantly sprinting for limit break boosts, buffing etc. I suppose that just means your view of "nothing" is very different when support is generally something.

2: no idea what you said.

3: also full trinity could have several meanings as well. Tanks can still absorb damage but dps could stay non important to them as they are just damage sponges, dps is dps, and heals i heals. Its not that complicated.

So basically good dps do the most work while bad ones can stay hidden, or making me lose the ability to carry DPS in expert and the like, ok i guess, not something I agree with but whatever. Personally I do not like heal only tanks that use no CD and act like a DPS with large mp, and I feel that would be too much of the expected if some people get their way of having heal only healers by making stuff more heal intensive to the likes of salvage.

[Hyperia]

The lead healer designer reported, in the developer blog, that in the new dungeon, they were too busy to take any screen shots. It is has been clearly hinted that they are doing something and DPS is probably not on the list. Personally, I would like to see CS disabled outside of any open world or solo content, for 4 party groups and up save for Deep Dungeon. The DPS situation has to be fixed on the DPS side and stop forcing tanks and healers to be a crutch for DPS. When I am on my healer, I want to heal, when I am on my tank, I want to tank, when I am on my DPS... I question why I am on my DPS!

If they don't fix the healer DPS on this expansion, then they should just ditch the trinity all together in the next expansion and make everybody DPS and have some healing / mitigation abilities. My hope is that they fix it, I'd prefer to see the trinity continue.

[Natashio]

In short, you guys just want to make the game more boring than what it already is. I'm I understanding that right..?

[Bourne_Endeavor]

The lead healer designer reported, in the developer blog, that in the new dungeon, they were too busy to take any screen shots. It is has been clearly hinted that they are doing something and DPS is probably not on the list. Personally, I would like to see CS disabled outside of any open world or solo content, for 4 party groups and up save for Deep Dungeon. The DPS situation has to be fixed on the DPS side and stop forcing tanks and healers to be a crutch for DPS. When I am on my healer, I want to heal, when I am on my tank, I want to tank, when I am on my DPS... I question why I am on my DPS!

If they don't fix the healer DPS on this expansion, then they should just ditch the trinity all together in the next expansion and make everybody DPS and have some healing / mitigation abilities. My hope is that they fix it, I'd prefer to see the trinity continue.

Do that and healer queues will plummet while endgame statics will shift towards a 2-1-5 comp. Content simply does not hit hard enough to warrant pure healing. On White Mage, I'll spend 70-80% of my time DPSing. If Cleric were blocked, I'd be useless for the majority of every dungeon-- not to mention bored out of my mind since I have literally nothing to do. Furthermore, this idea of tanks and healers carrying DPS needs to die. It's objectively wrong. Even at optimal levels, all damage dealers can only produce so much DPS. When say, a Warrior, can survive all the mechanics in Deliverance. Why shouldn't they switch and add to the overall raid DPS? The difference between tanks who properly optimize and those who stay in tank stance can equate to more than 2,000 DPS between them. They essentially combined for 5th fully dedicated DPS.

Also disabling cleric stance should not leave you with nothing to do as your damaging spells are still there they are just weaker.

Without Cleric, DPS skills are worthless due to the MP to damage ratio.

Stone III (530 MP)

382 damage (Cleric off)
648 damage (Cleric on; critical hit)
3,152 damage (Cleric on)
4,882 damage (Cleric on; critical hit)

That equates to approximately 10-13%, which is abysmal. So yes, you're doing nothing. Nevertheless, I do agree with the rest of your point. Healer DPS ought to be a bonus or something skilled players strive towards and less mandatory because healer intensity is mostly nonexistent.

[Rysir]

Some of you guys are thinking in a very one dimensional way.

There needs to be more than just one change to make things work, other balance changes also need to be applied. Also disabling cleric stance should not leave you with nothing to do as your damaging spells are still there they are just weaker.

You cant take away cleric without nerfing healing/intensifying damage of content as that will just harm the game for no reason, if like say a goal of reversing the healing : dpsing ratio so its primarily healing with some dpsing instead of primarily dpsing with some healing then you have to either make content hit harder so healers cant yawn it off or reduce healing potency slowly over some patches and ease people in to it then thats more productive.

Changing or chopping away one thing wont fix the healer issue as its too huge of a problem to be fixed by just one change. Want to reduce cleric stance's extreme dominance? Make healing engaging and fun and not overpowered to the point just a couple heals lets you have large down times so the end result shifts to primarily heals and sometimes dps and not try to wipe away the dps option.

Make changes equally and not with extremes!

[Ama_Hamada]

Some of you guys are thinking in a very one dimensional way.

There needs to be more than just one change to make things work, other balance changes also need to be applied. Also disabling cleric stance should not leave you with nothing to do as your damaging spells are still there they are just weaker.
You cant take away cleric without nerfing healing/intensifying damage of content as that will just harm the game for no reason, if like say a goal of reversing the healing : dpsing ratio so its primarily healing with some dpsing instead of primarily dpsing with some healing then you have to either make content hit harder so healers cant yawn it off or reduce healing potency slowly over some patches and ease people in to it then thats more productive.

Changing or chopping away one thing wont fix the healer issue as its too huge of a problem to be fixed by just one change. Want to reduce cleric stance's extreme dominance? Make healing engaging and fun and not overpowered to the point just a couple heals lets you have large down times so the end result shifts to primarily heals and sometimes dps and not try to wipe away the dps option.

Make changes equally and not with extremes!

I was trying to get across that point with the healer and tank balance. It is not as simple as some make it out to be. "Oh it is no issue if healers can't DPS in group content". Lets check the cause and effect with how people play now shall we?

If healers can't DPS at all this means they need to heal more.
If they are healing more like all the time doing healing rotations like dps, mp cost balance needs to be looked into
If healers are healing all the time then tanks need take an acceptable damage over time. This means stuff needs to deal more damage while increasing passive damage taken by tanks since people are not dependable to even using provoke.
So now that we got more enmity generated by healing, we need more hate grabbing tools for tanks.
Now that we entered the issue with enmity, that means tanks need to generate more of it while in DPS stance if dance stance on tanks is allowed.
If we do not have healing intense and fill it with buff giving, that puts AST uniqueness balance issues as an issue now.

Now where that leaves the DPS? it needs to be easy enough where hitting 1 button is respectable damage so I am not spending 40 mins in an expert. What about solo content where you need to DPS? You need to COMPLETELY CHANGE THE GAME if you are going to take out healer dps because of your personal grievance of "healers need to heal"