1.2 Needs to fix Sentinel, Tanking, and XI Class-ism.

[Tsukino]

Honestly, the job system should fix this completely. Jobs are going to be better for party play, and they're going to lock you out of using abilities from other classes.

[RathSkybreaker]

Honestly, the job system should fix this completely. Jobs are going to be better for party play, and they're going to lock you out of using abilities from other classes.

yayyyyyyyyyyyy *extra y's for post acceptance*

[akisato]

Honestly, the job system should fix this completely. Jobs are going to be better for party play, and they're going to lock you out of using abilities from other classes.

i dont think job will work this way. how would you be a PLD if you cant use cure?

[rzr22]

i dont think job will work this way. how would you be a PLD if you cant use cure?

Maybe by making cure a Paladin skill as well? Hell, it's even like this in FFXI. You don't need WHM as a subjob to get cure.

[akisato]

Maybe by making cure a Paladin skill as well? Hell, it's even like this in FFXI. You don't need WHM as a subjob to get cure.

yea or why not just get it for CNJ. it is true you didn't need WHM to use cure as a PLD in ff11 but that was because PLD could ,like WHM and RDM, use white magic. so kinda the same thing PLD will be able to use conjury.

[rzr22]

That does suggest a potential problem and it's something that might want to be looked into.

But then where's the cut-off point? That's the issue your argument runs into.

Lets pretend Random Idiot has a completely off the wall build. He takes forever to kill things. He dies a lot, but eventually gets there. He now wants to join your group.

Do you say yes or no? No, right? Why? Because his build is bad. It's not efficient. It wastes your time.

At what point does SE say, "No, your build simply does not work." There has to be some point. If there is no cut-off point, then bosses will have to be so easy that Random Idiot can go kill a boss only using Aero 1 if he so desires. And who are you to tell them otherwise? The skill system is supposed to be free, right? But wait, you do care. Why? Because while Random Idiot is struggling with the fight because he's spamming Aero 1, you're sitting there bored to tears because it takes no effort for you, the min/maxer, to actually defeat the boss.

but this is the thing, you are in NO WAY required to have the skill to win, it just makes the fight more difficult

I will admit that I have no experience with this fight. So maybe you can fill me in.

There's a difference between "not required" and "not required, but it sure makes things a lot easier if you do." If your odds of completing some portion of content are increased significantly by using a certain skill, to the playerbase, this becomes required. In MMOs, time is king. Time trumps skill in a lot of cases. The best use of time often becomes the requirement or the expectancy.

Now, if your argument is that the fight without Sentinel is only marginally more difficult (or is a crutch for dumb players) and the playerbase is blowing things out of proportion, then you have a point. Regardless, I still think my point that open skill systems are a slippery slope remains, though perhaps not for this particular issue.

[Raijin]

is a crutch for dumb players.

thats what sentinel is, its a renewable get out of jail free card.

The dev team made sure that you can beat the fight with barly any invelovement of other classes.

i could probably heal it with CON skills, naked and using solely rampart 1 as a damage mitigator, but that means i have to play flawlessly, and why would i when i have so many options at my disposal? options that i took the time to level.

[Tibian]

But then where's the cut-off point? That's the issue your argument runs into.

Lets pretend Random Idiot has a completely off the wall build. He takes forever to kill things. He dies a lot, but eventually gets there. He now wants to join your group.

Do you say yes or no? No, right? Why? Because his build is bad. It's not efficient. It wastes your time.

I do like that you're taking the "unusual" role into play here. But I think at some point you really do need to be realistic and less hypothetical. My build is clearly a DPS Thm/Conj, both are 50. I have backup healing as needed, but my primary task is debuff/dots/damage and then to take out a nail. I can, and have survived the hellfire before with emulate/stoneskin/rampart. Furthermore I think I've survived it with just stoneskin/full HP as well.

Like I've said in previous posts, the armory system really does make it so you can play however you want. I think the cut off line needs to be examined to say "ok, so mages will generally level two thm/conj/arcanist(when it is out)," "dps will probably level Mrd/pug," archer could probably go in either of those builds, but it is kind of floating off on it's own right now and will have a companion with musketeer later.

It is practical to have thm and conj both leveled up if you're a mage. It is practical to have gld/mrd leveled as well. Currently tanking is the hardest hit situation in which you are truly required to level three classes to be functional at a minimum. This shouldn't be the case. A gladiator on its own should be able to tank rather effectively. Mages can get away with their class relatively OK as a single class, archer can do it ok as a single class, and probably most other DD's.

There's a difference between "not required" and "not required, but it sure makes things a lot easier if you do." If your odds of completing some portion of content are increased significantly by using a certain skill, to the playerbase, this becomes required.

And I am right with you. This definitely crosses the line though when you literally have to level up an obligatory class that you have no desire to play, and has a completely unrelated play-style to say.. a mage, or even archer. This isn't just a skill that say... reduces damage by 5%. It is literally 50-60% making it required.

To prove my point, shadowsear is THM only, ancient magic is Conj only. These are related classes and you can't use their skills? But a move that is so powerful that takes off 50-60% of the damage of hellfire isn't class restricted? If you don't call that OP, I'd hate to see what your definition of OP really is. If SE really wanted us to use sentinel as mages, they could have swapped it to a shield skill, which mages are encouraged to use and level up with.

Time trumps skill in a lot of cases.

This is where SE really hurts the most. Time consuming =/= difficult. Monotonous and repetitive time consuming grinds =/= engaging gameplay. Time and soul sucking requirements =/= accessible to new players.

That is what this really is about. SE needs to prevent such a massive barrier from being erected that ultimately drives people away from the game.

The line needs to be drawn before this gets completley out of control. Before you know it, linkshells will require applicants to level every single class to 50. Its outrageous, and as a community we need to step up to SE and say "no, you need to re-examine this skill/mechanic."

You can make engaging and challenging fights; but requiring to level up gladiator for the fight is not a good way to start.

Now, if your argument is that the fight without Sentinel is only marginally more difficult (or is a crutch for dumb players) and the playerbase is blowing things out of proportion, then you have a point.

You pretty much hit it on the head with that last statement.

Ifrit fight is very VERY simple mechanic wise. the only thing that makes it "hard" is the animation locks and server lag

its not a fight for the ultra elite, anyone with enough attempts should be able to kill him

So very true. This just makes my point of view even more valid that you said this. And what defines you as "ultra elite?" Spending countless hours performing horrible and monotonous grinds just to get that extra skill? No, it should be how you as a character play and perform based on the mechanics of the fight. Unfortunately, with animation lock and server issues, these interfere really with taking gameplay to the next level to elitism.

[Raijin]

it should be how you as a character play and perform based on the mechanics of the fight. Unfortunately, with animation lock and server issues, these interfere really with taking gameplay to the next level to elitism.

sorry to burst the bubble, but thats exactly what the ifrit fight is. its not about what skills you got, its about how you move. You can literally do the fight with a single job leveled to 50 and the rest to 16-20 TOPS, even more, as a healer, you could theoretically do it naked without any issues.

Sentinel is a very strong skill, but so is chainspell, so is ferocity 2, so is blindside 2, so is invigorate 2, so is second wind 2, so is bloodbath 2, cure 3 and sac 3 and the nerfed to hell emulate. they all have something in common, theyre all acquired in the 40s. hell with how strong sentinel is, it should be a rank 48 skill, be glad its not a rank 48 skill.

[Seirra_Lanzce]

Honestly, the job system should fix this completely. Jobs are going to be better for party play, and they're going to lock you out of using abilities from other classes.

i approve of this post!