Stormblood Crafting System

[Caimie_Tsukino]

What's the difference between omni crafters? Under your system nothing is different! So if everyone achieves the goal of becoming omni crafter or even if just a larger portion of the crafting community becomes omni crafters it will discourage interdependence.

But with the current system if you specialize crafters, limiting them to 3 at any given time; ppl will settle into the jobs they like/want (at that time); this niche will better facilitate interdependence; and since there is no weekly cap you can swap your 3 at any given time (with some added effort).

Sorry, but... why do we need interdependence?

[Silverbane]

Sorry, but... why do we need interdependence?

Seconded. When my third character reached L60 WHM, it was quite enjoyable to make a full set of HQ L255/L250 gear for that character on my main without having to wake up my wife for help. She recently did something similar when her third character hit L60 BRD.

The only thing we had to buy IIRC was some stone that's only available via airship missions, as our guild has none. Yet.

BTW, one reason my third character is almost an omni-crafter as well (and will be soon) is simple: you get used to being able to repair your gear in the middle of a dungeon. And that motivates me to level everything but CUL.

[Roth_Trailfinder]

Specialization was not meant to help the omnicrafter. It was meant to help the single class crafter "compete" with the omnicrafter. Placing limitations on the omnicrafter does not level the playing field, it merely restricts who can come onto the field. Reducing the competition does not enable the competition.

Interdependence? That's rather contradictory to the idea that you can be all classes/jobs, switching between them almost at will.

[Driavna]

FFXIV it's an MMO's and interdependencies should be a thing, players are supposed to interact with one another. In fact, the whole system is built around this idea but fail when is allowing a single character (or account) to be everything. Since this trend become a thing, plus market boards instead of player shops, MMO's economies were dumbed down to oblivion. Being fully independent is not a good thing but it's what players demand: single player games with the ability to "show off" how awesome you are.

With this in mind, SE best bet is let it go and make all DOH like CUL, 100% fully independent, and follow Roth's idea but as a baseline (FFXIV crafting never was a hardcore system anyway). For omnicrafters nothing change, still can craft everything but more people will be allowed to participate dropping current prices to Japan levels, NA/EU market prices are a product of gil sellers.

[javid]

Interdependence fosters an economy. And the advent of specialist had several functions not just uplifting the solo crafter.

And someone on this forum or one like it already threw a monkey wrench in that analogy of being able to level all the fighting jobs. Switch between all the jobs at will all You want...you still not beating Sophia (hard) with your omni jobs.....You need a team.....this is an MMO....that also goes for crafting in a mmo interdependence breeds teamwork and bolsters the game's economy. A bunch of self sufficient mini entities that gather and crafter all their stuff do no lend as well toward teamwork MMO... especially not in comparison to this system coming up.

[Alien_Gamer]

I think my preferred solution would be for the specialist stone to grant the ability to cross class skills from 2-3 other classes that they don't have leveled yet. It gives a single class crafter the ability to compete with omni crafters without making omnicrafters useless. The stat bonuses should be removed, it makes a specialist stone "almost" required even for omni crafters instead of something that enables a different style of play.

[Silverbane]

Interdependence fosters an economy. ... A bunch of self sufficient mini entities that gather and crafter all their stuff do no lend as well toward teamwork MMO... especially not in comparison to this system coming up.

This is all too meta for me.

I play FFXIV to have fun. I find being an omni-crafting omni-gathering WHM (with a side of WAR and BRD) fun. My wife finds being an omni-crafting omni-gathering BRD (with a side of WHM) fun. We have some fun alone, and more fun together. Hopefully that will continue in Stormblood.

Not sure why other people worry about the meta and "the economy" so much. So what if marketboard prices crash or are too high: I'm not playing FFXIV to get rich (the 8 million gil I made one weekend crafting L250 weapons didn't help when I went to buy coffee). I suspect it's just about getting a system that makes it easy for them to accomplish some individual goal they chose. I'm not that picky or egotistical, I'll just roll with whatever Yoshi-P and Co. come up with or, in the unlikely event it's a complete CF, find another place to spend my subscription dollars.

[Roth_Trailfinder]

Interdependence fosters an economy. And the advent of specialist had several functions not just uplifting the solo crafter.

And someone on this forum or one like it already threw a monkey wrench in that analogy of being able to level all the fighting jobs. Switch between all the jobs at will all You want...you still not beating Sophia (hard) with your omni jobs.....You need a team.....this is an MMO....that also goes for crafting in a mmo interdependence breeds teamwork and bolsters the game's economy. A bunch of self sufficient mini entities that gather and crafter all their stuff do no lend as well toward teamwork MMO... especially not in comparison to this system coming up.

Buying and selling stuff is the economy, whether it is refined materials that you cannot craft due to some heavy handed regulation, or the finished product one does not have the time, inclination, or levels to craft. Claiming, in essence, that interdependence supports an economy and independence does not is ludicrous. Independence is what helps keep prices lower, allowing for more affordable goods, and thus more market activity. Interdependence raises the cost of materials and thus of the final product, resulting in a lower demand and thus less economic activity.

And no, that comparison does not fly. The comparison would not be the single character vs Sophia hard, but the FC workshop to Sophia hard. The single character comparison would be to any soloable side quest that is not class-locked (IE - not a Relic quest or a class/job quest, or a dungeon/trial/other instance unlocking quest). An example of such a quest would be the Scholasticate, or the HW Hildibrand stuff.

[Caimie_Tsukino]

FFXIV it's an MMO's and interdependencies should be a thing, players are supposed to interact with one another.

Not all interdependencies stimulate player interactions. It really comes down to "what kind" of interdependencies. If we're just talking about LTW needing an ingot from BSM. The LTW buys it off the MB, and it ends there. There's no interaction between the two people. If you're talking about how a group of people needs to cooperate and raid together in order to beat Sophia or get a hunt done. That's a very different kind of interdependency. Heck, completely independent players can interact too! I am interacting with you right now, ain't I? But we're not interdependent on one another! But interdependencies among crafters/gatherers/raiders are actually very important to the economy. I shall explain below.

In fact, the whole system is built around this idea but fail when is allowing a single character (or account) to be everything. Since this trend become a thing, plus market boards instead of player shops, MMO's economies were dumbed down to oblivion. Being fully independent is not a good thing but it's what players demand: single player games with the ability to "show off" how awesome you are.

Firstly, I do not believe most omni-crafters/omni-gatherers are truly independent. Even people like Silverbane who has like 3 characters or something does not mean he does not buy things from others. The moment he spends gil on the MB, he becomes "dependent". Why? You only have 24 hours a day. You can't do EVERYTHING. For instance, if you go gathering and crafting, chances are that you won't have time to grind dungeons/trials. Thus, dungeon/trial drops are the things that you cannot acquire by yourself. I am pretty sure Silverbane must have purchased a minion or two in the past (Tell me if I'm right, Silverbane)!

Secondly, economy is dead when gil flows in a uni-direction or completely stops flowing. As long as a rich omni-crafter constantly spends his/her money on something on the MB, gil is flowing in and out of him/her. Thus, it won't kill the economy. Do you remember the beginning of HW? THAT was a dying economy! Gatherer's tools and gear were NOT made by crafters. But crafter's 2 star class-specific gear require a huge amount of Favor Mats from gatherers. Crafting required no dungeon drops from raiders. And the 2 star i180 gear were way too inferior to tome-purchased gear. The only income for crafters were to sell lower level crafting gear to lower level crafters. Thus, crafters' gil were constantly flowing to gatherers, but not the other way around. Where as raiders and crafters were completely independent of each other. This caused a uni-directional gil flow, which drove crafters poorer and poorer, while gatherers become richer and richer... Meanwhile, the gil flow between crafters and raiders were completely stagnant... and THAT was killing the economy. Single players "showing off" how awesome they are does not kill the economy.

With this in mind, SE best bet is let it go and make all DOH like CUL, 100% fully independent, and follow Roth's idea but as a baseline (FFXIV crafting never was a hardcore system anyway).

Well, CUL is fully independent from other crafters, but they're still very dependent on gatherers though.

Interdependence fosters an economy. And the advent of specialist had several functions not just uplifting the solo crafter.

Interdependence doesn't foster an economy. Gil flow does. As long as people don't just sell things, but buy things as well. Then gil flow is ensured, and the economy is fostered. Roth explained it very well above.

And someone on this forum or one like it already threw a monkey wrench in that analogy of being able to level all the fighting jobs. Switch between all the jobs at will all You want...you still not beating Sophia (hard) with your omni jobs.....You need a team.....this is an MMO....that also goes for crafting in a mmo interdependence breeds teamwork and bolsters the game's economy. A bunch of self sufficient mini entities that gather and crafter all their stuff do no lend as well toward teamwork MMO... especially not in comparison to this system coming up.

Yup, you need a team to beat Sophia! But you don't need a team to make a leather jacket! You just need a leatherworker, and some metal buttons that perhaps come from a blacksmith! There are many things in this world that can be done better by a team, but there are also many things that are easier to be done by just one person. Wouldn't it be silly to require an alliance of 24 crafters just to make a frying pan?

I think my preferred solution would be for the specialist stone to grant the ability to cross class skills from 2-3 other classes that they don't have leveled yet. It gives a single class crafter the ability to compete with omni crafters without making omnicrafters useless. The stat bonuses should be removed, it makes a specialist stone "almost" required even for omni crafters instead of something that enables a different style of play.

I like this idea. If the Soul Crystal allows the specialist to equip perhaps 3 level 50 cross class skills from classes which they don't have, then it'll be a very powerful boost to the Specialist, but won't be overpowered since it's not on equal ground to being omni-crafter.

[javid]

You're arguing against points not made....where did i say one fosters an economy and the other one doesn't? You copied my post then misquote me........

I said interdependence does more than independence for market activity. Price points have everything to do with supply and demand....very little to do with whether everyone is omni independent or interdependent. But actual market activity has more to do with competitive advantage(like you mentioned) AND absolute advantage (aka specialist recipes). And not being able to craft everything (without swapping crystals) drives ppl to interact more with the MB (whether to sell or buy) THAN being self sufficient would....

This was never a discussion about prices.

Lastly the anagloy was sufficient. It's just that you presuppose crafting should be a solo quest and I presuppose crafting should be a dungeon run....so all kinds of analogies can fit either pressuppostion.