I might of figured something out today. Game too easy for leveling duties?

[bswpayton]

Challenge is very subjective , I have a friend who want even do the 24 mans with me, who left diadem because of the emergency tactics mission. I think alot of it has to do with people being criticized for failing maybe while learning or just in general. And so build walls up and just say f it , and then others just simply wont even participate, if they start makin dungeons harder then some people may end up quitting the game if they get hurdles that put fear in them. Dungeons are easy but alot of people think they are very challenging like the vault, av, the gubal library etc.

[Malzian]

It really does come down to laziness rather than a lack of skill a lot of the time. A lot of the playerbase seems to be fine with the "good enough" play style these days and don't want to put in the extra effort. Now, I'm not saying you're a an awful person for it, but it can be quite evident at times who really cares and who doesn't.

Case in point: I started an alt on Diabolos the other day (got an invite from ASR to come by so I took them up on it) and have been leveling it somewhat casually. I got to Tam-tara last night and I was paired up with a level 30 BRD as a level 23 ARC. Since I already have an end game BRD I was doing all the typical stuff, DoTing all the adds, using quick nock on packs, repelling spot when it was up and all of that. The BRD was single target, no repelling or anything and I out DPSed them the whole run (based on emnity tables, not a parser btw). How does a lower geared, lower level ARC out DPS a lvl 30 BRD? The only answer I could come up with is they just didn't care... And that really does go a long way.

[SendohJin]

Yes, it absolutely will, but that's not necessarily a good thing. If you're good enough to get through hard content, great. If you're not, you're going to do one of two things: get better, or quit. Either way, the people who are left will be better. But the problem is, people quitting is bad for the game financially, so it's not something Square Enix will do (nor should they).

... you'd be left with a very small population of very good players. And again, that's not a good thing.

so your answer should be No? if it makes 3 people get better and 7 people quit, that's not "getting rid of the laziness of the player base" that's just "getting rid of the player base".

and some people are just bad, not because they are lazy.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

I've spoken on this already and I'm of the mindset that we need the challenge for very big reasons:


1. Kill the "It's just Duty Finder" mentality:
Simply put, if you give players a challenge they need everyone all in for, players will - more often than not - do what it takes and work together. Weeping City was a decent example of this. It was challenging, and though most are used to 24 man raids being easier (thus not having to focus or make effort), many pushed to do it, then realized it was just fine as is. I understand devs don't wish to make everything a challenge, or perhaps want to keep the bar set at a reachable level, but when you consider Heavensward dungeons largely had many old raid mechanics (as we were used to them by then - those who ran Coil, that is) the hand-holding becomes unnecessary. So as long as things are easy and bare minimum effort is more than enough, the "it's just Duty Finder" mentality will continue. Throw players that curveball to make them wake up every now and then.

2. Make gear and rewards feel rewarding again:
I can't stress this enough. Do you know why I still have my Darklight Corset of Aiming? Because I beat the original Demon Wall. Bees and all. Might not seem like that much of a challenge looking back, but then? Whew, it was pretty tough. And when I walked into Mor Dhona with that thing on, man. . . I had my own personal Miqo'te Paradise. I was THE MAN. . . Okay, jokes aside, I have it because it really was rewarding to get it then. I faced a tough challenge and earned myself a nice reward. That's the feeling we need again. Less time-based rationing of gear and rewards and more rewarding of skill and effort. For those that might worry it will drive off players, let me say this: If you are expecting time and minimal effort to give you everything you want in game, you are wasting both the game's potential and your own. When I hit that wall and I suddenly had to get tough or leave empty handed, I got tough. And I won. And I've stayed getting tougher and winning ever since. It's a much better feeling than rolling over and fetching tomes/tokens. If it means culling the numbers a bit, that's fine too.

[Moomba33]

I play games to relax personally. I'm not interested in daily content being challenging to complete.
Stuff like Weeping City and Final Steps of Faith are about the max I would take for difficulty from normal content. Wipes happen but most groups can pull through and finish.

If normal content became a struggle to complete I would probably stop playing.

[Talraen]

so your answer should be No? if it makes 3 people get better and 7 people quit, that's not "getting rid of the laziness of the player base" that's just "getting rid of the player base".

Yeah my personal answer would be "no." But when people say "if you make it harder, people will get good," they're not wrong. I phrased it that way because I wanted to point out that what seems to a given user as "people getting good" also consists of a lot of bad people quitting. There's a reason the harder historic MMOs had far fewer users than WoW, and it's this. Or to look at it another way, the more exclusive you make the club, the better the community is liable to be. But that doesn't help Square Enix's bottom line.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

I play games to relax personally. I'm not interested in daily content being challenging to complete.
Stuff like Weeping City and Final Steps of Faith are about the max I would take for difficulty from normal content. Wipes happen but most groups can pull through and finish.

If normal content became a struggle to complete I would probably stop playing.

No one's saying make normal content on par with raids, alliance raids, or trials. We are saying that "Expert" dungeons shouldn't be easier than leveling dungeons. Especially not when you're bound to be running them ad nauseum for 3 months. Even the gear that drops is effectively obsolete for anything but glamour along the way because catch up patches literally boost players to near-raid level gearing, and thus well above what's offered (in the i260s, but Baelsar's/Sohm Al drop 245. . .) And call me bad to say it, but there's plenty of relaxing content in game as is, though mileage may vary. Personally, I find gathering relaxing. I love battle content and enjoy a challenge, so stepping away from that to gather now and then feels good to me.

And while I'm not directing this at you personally, the idea that players don't want to be challenged is a huge setback to the game's growth. Already we have people at level 60 that can't even handle neutered versions of level 50 content and mechanics; imagine how shameful that will be at level 70 when faced with what was "hard" at 60. If we keep rising, but the bar stays low, we'll soon be so far above and beyond the content and challenge as is, and why even bother then?

[Moomba33]

No one's saying make normal content on par with raids, alliance raids, or trials. We are saying that "Expert" dungeons shouldn't be easier than leveling dungeons. Especially not when you're bound to be running them ad nauseum for 3 months. Even the gear that drops is effectively obsolete for anything but glamour along the way because catch up patches literally boost players to near-raid level gearing, and thus well above what's offered (in the i260s, but Baelsar's/Sohm Al drop 245. . .) And call me bad to say it, but there's plenty of relaxing content in game as is, though mileage may vary. Personally, I find gathering relaxing. I love battle content and enjoy a challenge, so stepping away from that to gather now and then feels good to me.

And while I'm not directing this at you personally, the idea that players don't want to be challenged is a huge setback to the game's growth. Already we have people at level 60 that can't even handle neutered versions of level 50 content and mechanics; imagine how shameful that will be at level 70 when faced with what was "hard" at 60. If we keep rising, but the bar stays low, we'll soon be so far above and beyond the content and challenge as is, and why even bother then?

My fault for not quoting. I was responding to the person who mentioned Wildstar's difficulty and saying that I don't want failure to be a norm for PUGing dungeons.
Expert being easier than leveling dungeons is mostly the fault of the gear syncing being tighter for leveling content in my opinion.
I don't consider you bad for saying it. We just value different things in our games.

I don't view that as a setback personally. As I've said I don't consider challenge an important part of gaming. Ex primals are the highest content I do and I have to be in the right mood for them. I wouldn't want to deal with frustration and failure in regular content.
As for why to bother I primarily play FF to enjoy the music and story. I like the feeling of building up my character's power over time through leveling and gearing. I like that XIV allows me to experience that with friends.

[Ama_Hamada]

The thing is, maybe the changes to the jobs and cross class system will help with this, and depending what happens, I feel they need scale the "difficulty" to match it. For example, what if everyone got aoe and blood for blood to sastasha? How I feel things should be challenging enough where you are not simply hitting 1 button over and over again. Everyone is remarking how people quit in fear it might be made too hard, but what about people quitting from being board that it is too easy? How come this was never addressed till this post speaking on it?

When I say harder, I mean people finding a reason to actually use rotations, not this:
https://youtu.be/wNMWVMGoWOE?t=218
I swear people really do that at times.

Also this gets old:
https://youtu.be/L2wt7xb0HiI?t=256

Had a tank today doing that in fact then said i was "B*** too much about it when I only remarked about it twice throughout the whole run.

[Vincent_Mateus]

most of these lazy players would be weeded out if there was any content that was mildly difficult other than savage. Dungeons should be much harder in my opinion. Leave the solo instances at the Barny difficulty.