As a healer, is it my job to DPS? A new perspective.

[Feyona]

Jup. You said I put burden on people, while I actually removed it by releasing him from the group and taking away the 'burden' of keeping up with our level of skill.


Because I keep wondering: How would you have handled the situation? 7 partymembers playing on a very high level of skill, performing perfectly fine, but with 80% overheal in a farm party.

To be honest amelia. I never said you were a burden. I wouldnt have kicked him sorry even if he was doing nothing and wanted a carry but I am not against you personally or thinking you are a bad person. It was just a statement of fact and have nothing against you keep saying that merely because i didnt want you to feel bad about it but people asked me for evidence people are kicked for not dpsing whatever the reason. Also kind of felt coerced to give evidence in a way anyway being as I was asked for it. Im the one that was called a burden but ive never once called anyone else one in game or out

[Lambdafish]

but people asked me for evidence people are kicked for not dpsing whatever the reason.

no, people asked for evidence of people unfairly kicking people for not dpsing (that was your entire point wasn't it?). Amelia didn't kick them "because they weren't dpsing", they got kicked because they were being lazy, unhelpful and detrimental to the party, and expecting a carry is rude and disrespectful to the other 7 people in the party.

[Feyona]

no, people asked for evidence of people unfairly kicking people for not dpsing (that was your entire point wasn't it?). Amelia didn't kick them "because they weren't dpsing", they got kicked because they were being lazy, unhelpful and detrimental to the party, and expecting a carry is rude and disrespectful to the other 7 people in the party.

No you dint you said no one is kicked for not dpsing as healer

[Lambdafish]

No you dint you said no one is kicked for not dpsing as healer

And as I stated, because english is a wonderful language and you should read it some time, that the intention of Amelias kick was not "because they weren't DPSing", rather their detriment and disrespect to the party. My assumption behind your point is that you are disregarding this fact, and are trying to defend hard working players who are kicked unfairly, am I wrong? If I'm not then it is highly apparent, even if not said, that when we ask for evidence of your point, we are asking for evidence of it happening unfairly, otherwise you are defending a poor class of play and that is very damaging to the game.

The fact that I have to explain this is tiring ok? We may come across as patronising but that is because every little thing has to be explained to you, you don't pick up on subtext and fuel every post with your own narrative, and still think you have the higher ground even though you have still yet to back up your opinion with any kind of meaningful.... well anything really at this point

[Feyona]

And as I stated, because english is a wonderful language and you should read it some time, that the intention of Amelias kick was not "because they weren't DPSing", rather their detriment and disrespect to the party.

The fact that I have to explain this is tiring ok? We may come across as patronising but that is because every little thing has to be explained to you, you don't pick up on subtext and fuel every post with your own narrative, and still think you have the higher ground even though you have still yet to back up your opinion with any kind of meaningful.... well anything really at this point

yes its tiring you keep trying to explain stuff that I already know and keep twisting the facts why on earth cant you see that you do that? I will give evidence later if you like people said no one is kicked for not dpsing full stop factual stop twisting it

[Lambdafish]

people said no one is kicked for not dpsing full stop factual stop twisting it

Lets see shall we, I guess I need to do another one of these (not that it will help in the slightest)...

who is "they"? Nobody here has condoned that, and that is not normal behavior on at least my server, and I bet others can vouch that this is not normal or accepted behavior on any other servers.

Toxic people exist, but we move on from that and find better people, that is the way MMOs work.

This thread and quote you are talking about... don't expect others to find it for you, it makes for an incredibly weak argument and doesn't put your point in a very good light. The quote (?) that you just posted is also so out of context it hurts. Does that mean in casual content? in raid content? does it mean if they are idling? You don't see these factors, you just ASSUME that the standard attitude is DPS no matter what, which is simply untrue.

If you can give me concrete evidence that anything but the sheer minority of players that you come across expect DPS no matter how intensive the healing, then I will concede defeat and I'll even eat my hat. So far you have used the word "them" and given out of context, unsourced quotes that even if they were in context and sourced is merely anecdotal and doesn't represent a wholesome view of the issue.

Your so wrong and you obviously dont understand my points your the one always trying to argue with me and you dont main heal, so why cant you just accept this is the game experience there is alot of expectation for healers to dps and with no offence to amelia verves above that she stated above that she kicked a non dpsing healer. There is your pressure. Its up to amelia if she doesnt want that in her group but the rest of some people would like to heal without that pressure

There you go.
No stance dancing. No heals needed. Not. A. Single. One. From. Him.
How is that pressure? He literally just had to go into cleric and put/renew DOTs and throw ruin/broil.

I went as WHM because I know what I am capable of and because I know I can solo heal it. So I chose to be the main-heal in that group and wanted an off-healer that is basically just there if people mess up.
Noone messed up. It was a super smooth run, with incredibly high DPS, everyone was giving their best. Except SCH, who just idled around or casted unnecessary physicks which ended up in 100% overheal. -> Nice!

The sad truth is: everyone is on her side when it comes to learning parties and unexperienced healers. Noone here would even want them to stress too much and just get used in their own pace.

No I had no intention of attacking you at all, in fact the opposite where people are saying that there was no evidence of non dps healers being kicked. If there were no heals necessary its a different thing. I will apologise though for stating it. In my experience some do need both healers to heal often if tank is in dps stance. Or people fail mechics alot. I did not have any bad intentions in it, was just statement that it happens. I think where Im coming from is I feel people may be uncomfortable with going in cleric, full stop, especially in new content. I do realise that maybe none of you have this attitude that consciousy puts pressure on I just think people may exprience what is demanded in different ways.

The "evidence" that you provided was also selective and wrong, which you yourself apologised for misreading, I genuinely wanted to see the evidence that the community as a whole is toxic towards healers (implication being the "expects dps no matter what type"), thats why I asked for it, it just so happens that you yourself invalidated your "evidence". I haven't really been denying what you have been saying, I actually said (you can find the quote) that I would concede defeat and agree with you if you found me the evidence, so I'm not sure why I need a reality check.

no, people asked for evidence of people unfairly (read up about toxic behavior) kicking people for not dpsing (that was your entire point wasn't it?). Amelia didn't kick them "because they weren't dpsing", they got kicked because they were being lazy, unhelpful and detrimental to the party, and expecting a carry is rude and disrespectful to the other 7 people in the party.

Yep, thats a whole lot of... not... twisting anything.

Edit: bolded for clarity

[Feyona]

And as I stated, because english is a wonderful language and you should read it some time,

lambdafish I may be defending a poor standard of play but I also believe in choice. I would be pretty hypocritcal if I kicked someone for not dpsing when I hate it myself and want to be a healer. In fact its all I like in the game and all I want to do but, still dps if the party wants me to. Now as for this issue of should everyone else carry him? That is personal choice, and it makes some people angry so I wish SE would make it clear either that they have to put effort in as well or they can choose to just heal. My stance is just to let people have fun if I carry someone I dont care. like I dont mind carrying frends at all. I like people to feel happy thats all. However you think Im not perfect I know but dont hate enough to be really nasty. Im short sarcastic. Even dont debate well how I 'should' I dont really do much of 'should' . I question it.

[Stormbad]

lambdafish I may be defending a poor standard of play but I also believe in choice.

So does everyone else, well all believe in choices. Why is "choice" exclusive to you? Is it because if someone were to "choose" to kick someone for whatever reason that they are automatically in the wrong? If you are a champion of choice, you would accept all the opinions that oppose your opinions equally.

I would be pretty hypocritcal if I kicked someone for not dpsing when I hate it myself and want to be a healer. In fact its all I like in the game and all I want to do but, still dps if the party wants me to.

So don't kick healers who don't dps, nobody is telling you to do it.

Now as for this issue of should everyone else carry him? That is personal choice, and it makes some people angry so I wish SE would make it clear either that they have to put effort in as well or they can choose to just heal.

Good for you. You seem like a patient person in game who is very willing to burn your own gametime to help someone who doesn't give a crap about your time. The anger comes from people like me, who can only game a few hours a week, who makes a PF with specific goals and having people who do not align with the goals at all. They are insulting the group and me for not aligning with the goals set in the PF and they are especially insulting for not being considerate of my tiny amount of gametime.

My stance is just to let people have fun if I carry someone I dont care. like I dont mind carrying frends at all.

Great, I love to see my friends happy too and I'll carry them through content but because I know them, enjoy playing with them and they share my values. And it's hypocritical to say let everyone have fun when you don't accept that there are people who have fun through performance and optimization. You think they don't deserve fun because they think that way?

I like people to feel happy thats all. However you think Im not perfect I know but dont hate enough to be really nasty. Im short sarcastic. Even dont debate well how I 'should' I dont really do much of 'should' . I question it.

I like people feeling happy as well, I'm sure everyone else here feels the same way. That is also not exclusive to you. Some of us choose to make the group happy by kicking underperforming people or people who do not follow the group's established rules. Why is that wrong? Is that 1 person's happiness any more important than the other 7?

Please note that all of my questions are rhetorical so please don't cut out my entire post to answer a question out of context.

[Feyona]

So does everyone else, well all believe in choices. Why is "choice" exclusive to you? Is it because if someone were to "choose"





Please note that all of my questions are rhetorical so please don't cut out my entire post to answer a question out of context.

Stormbad why do you perceive in anything what Ive said that I think anything is exclusive to me?
When I talk of choice I mean everyone's . Thats why Ive asked for it to be made more clear to people. And I may not be able to quote it all cos of space and thats the only reason Ive cut anyone's. Fund doing things properly hard on controller . No one has said anyone's wrong, about it. Even someone being kicked I said its up to amelia if she wants to. I really dont mind burning my game time for others Its one of the things I most enjoy ... Playing with people. They are more important than optimal play

[AmeliaVerves]

Actually, I am not even mad, rather amazed by how bad your reading skills seem to be. I will show you, just for the sake of it.

That anyone burdens other people? [...] truth that amelia kicked someone or pointed out elitist words

Jup. You said I put burden on people [...]

To be honest amelia thats whats known as a parataxic distortion. Because I never said you were a burden.

I don't know how good your english is, but there is a huge difference between putting burden and being a burden. Please decide which one you are talking about and stay with one direction.
At first you asked where you said anyone puts burden on others (to burden someone = to put burden on someone) so I answered you accused me for putting burden on others.
Then you state you never said I am a burden.
Ok, that's right, you never did, because I was not, but what does that have to do with the context?
No idea what you are trying to tell me about the parataxic distortion, because it is totally not. I didn't expect my co-heal to be server 1st on clears, I wanted him to try improving, no matter what the result would have been. He just straight away refused to. If you mean I am reflecting this distortion onto you, I don't really see where I did that, so please explain to me, because I want to know on what you based your thesis.

I wouldnt have kicked him sorry even if he was doing nothing and wanted a carry

Fair enough, you don't need to apologize for anything at all, but please realise it is kind of unfair for you to 'call me out' for wanting a team where each member contributes the same will to put effort. In fact we didn't expected him to have purple numbers on fflogs, but we wanted him to try.
In fact you always say how respectful and understanding you are, but it is not respectful at all to point at someones behaviour you do not support or understand.
Even if it is valid or not, this is something I would consider slightly rude. :/

I think it is nice of you to support other players and to help them clear content. It's a nice thing you do for the community, but you should not put that burden on others to live up to that as well. All of us are different and I am just not as patient as you, as it seems, therefore I wont do the same, please respect that.

disrespectful to the other 7 people

This is exactly what all of us felt, because I asked him politely to try contributing DPS and that he can just start off with putting DoTs.
If he would have been able to contribute not more than 200dps (which is basically DoTs here and there all over the fight) it would have been perfectly fine, because he would have shown the will to play as part of the team.