seeing all these total newbie tank is hilarious

[Jpec07]

I never thought I'd see the day when I saw someone throw down an elitism argument for Pokémon of all things in the tank forums. I guess it just goes to show that elitists of a feather will flock together.

Look, yes, there are tooltips in the game to explain how moves work. Yes, there are quests to the same effect. Yes, the Hall of the Novice teaches you how to perform the most basic functions of your role. So yes, a player not knowing how to do some of the basic stuff by the time they get to a dungeon is kind of on their own heads, and yes, they have somewhat inconvenienced you if you happen to be in a party with them.

But rather than chew them out or grumble silently to complain about it later on the net, isn't it better to be kind and helpful, especially if the player is receptive? Sure, they could have gotten there on their own, but investing 1-2 minutes to explain the newbie a thing and praising them when they get it right will give everyone a much better experience, and is contributing to the positivity of the community. Grumbling and complaining (1) does not fix the problem, and (2) perpetuates the cycle of negativity. Yes, it's their fault, but that doesn't give you an excuse to be an arse.

And if that player's lack of knowledge really bothers you, there's nothing stopping you from joking with them after you've helped them: "you know, all this stuff is there in the tooltips for the moves, if you read them "

[dragonseth07]

I never thought I'd see the day when I saw someone throw down an elitism argument for Pokémon of all things in the tank forums. I guess it just goes to show that elitists of a feather will flock together.

Yup, elitist, the word people love to use as an excuse to write someone off on these forums.

Yes, clearly this is a situation where the new player can get some help from a friendly player and improve as a result. Hugs all around.

The problem is that these same players keep going, and keep not learning on their own, only improving when someone else sits down to explain things. Ever met a level 50 Lancer? I have. What about a 60 BLM who thought ice mage was a legit playstyle? We all have.

Players are not held accountable to learn, and that's a problem.

[Jpec07]

Yup, elitist, the word people love to use as an excuse to write someone off on these forums.

Yes, clearly this is a situation where the new player can get some help from a friendly player and improve as a result. Hugs all around.

The problem is that these same players keep going, and keep not learning on their own, only improving when someone else sits down to explain things. Ever met a level 50 Lancer? I have. What about a 60 BLM who thought ice mage was a legit playstyle? We all have.

Players are not held accountable to learn, and that's a problem.

If people weren't so averse to getting off their high horses and teaching others, it wouldn't be as much of an issue.

EDIT: I also realize that some people don't want to be taught, but in my experience it's always worth t to try.

I met a level 34 GLD while fighting Titan on an alt who didn't know that FFXIV even had a job system. The quest appears when you finish the GLD story, but it's red until you get CNJ to 15--and the game doesn't exactly tell you that that's what you're supposed to do (it hints at it, but it's not spelled out). Until Stormblood, a quest to go to the required class hall and level that class to 15 would be very helpful in this regard, but I doubt if they'll add that in. Instead, it's our job as members of the community to teach one another and raise the floor.

I've seen a lot of things. There was an archer in Neverreap in level 30 gear. There was a summoner who didn't know how to use Dreadwyrm Trance or Ruin III, and a BLM who didn't use Enochian. I've seen a CNJ in Stone Vigil (that one hurt), a WAR in Int gear, a DRK who, at level 60, constantly floored their MP and let Darkside fall off. But for all of these, taking five minutes to explain things to them has always helped, and giving them resources for self improvement has always been met with thanks.

And I've seen these players turn around after I took those five minutes, and I've seen them improve themselves and pay it forward.

We who have knowledge and experience did not gain that from thin air. If you read tooltips, quest text, NPC dialogue? You learned to do all of that somewhere. If you search Google for tips on how to minmax your rotation or your opener? You learned to do that somewhere. If you see a bad player at some advanced point in the game? They have probably never learned that. Wouldn't it be nice of you to teach them not only how to play, but how to self improve? Sure, there are people who might not care, but I've never met them.

[winsock]

The problem is that these same players keep going, and keep not learning on their own, only improving when someone else sits down to explain things. Ever met a level 50 Lancer? I have. What about a 60 BLM who thought ice mage was a legit playstyle? We all have.

Players are not held accountable to learn, and that's a problem.

I disagree, mainly because the examples you have given have little/nothing to do with new tanks. In the OP's example, this was someone trying to learn, but struggling because of inexperience.

The problem is being overly critical or harassing the people who are in the learning phase. These new tanks decide it isn't worth the hassle of learning, then quit or change classes. The irony of the situation is that the DPS player who harassed the tank into quitting (and in many cases never tanked a dungeon themselves), proceeds to whine and complain about their 20min queue time spent waiting on a tank.

[KokonoeAiyoko]

Maybe you pressed buttons at random in your first MMO, but I would hazard to guess that most players are concerned with things like how to actually play, and are willing to do things like read tooltips.

I remember my first years of gaming. It's not like we were all hopeless back in the day.

Remember Gen I Pokemon? Where even the youngest could figure out to use water moves on the fire type?

Funny, you mentioned "how to play", but this game does a terrible job at actually doing that until the Novice stuff came into play, and even then it doesn't teach you the player meta or anything regarding rotations or how tanking actually is when you're minimum item level and everyone else is on that vitamin level sync.

Maybe you should get off the high horse for a moment and realize not everyone is accustomed to learning the way you or some others are. Not everything is as obvious for others as it is for you.

[Launched]

Funny, you mentioned "how to play", but this game does a terrible job at actually doing that until the Novice stuff came into play, and even then it doesn't teach you the player meta or anything regarding rotations or how tanking actually is when you're minimum item level and everyone else is on that vitamin level sync.

Maybe you should get off the high horse for a moment and realize not everyone is accustomed to learning the way you or some others are. Not everything is as obvious for others as it is for you.

It does a good job of giving you all the information you need. Skills are all spread out, and each one has a potency (better than showing exact damage numbers for comparisons), combo effects, and any bonus effects like damage buffs. Anyone with common sense should be able to level up, see that they got Maim, and realise that it's going to be a damage increase. With the exception of BLM getting Fire IV at 60, every other job has a good, self-explanatory skill progression and we really shouldn't need a popup that says "You hit level 30, here's exactly what you should be doing".

I only have a single problem with tank skills while leveling: you can't see the exact enmity modifiers so it's not obvious just how strong Flash, Overpower and Unleash are. Apart from that, I don't think anyone has a good reason for hitting 50 (or even 30) without a decent idea of how to play their job.

[Venjenz]

I only have a single problem with tank skills while leveling: you can't see the exact enmity modifiers so it's not obvious just how strong Flash, Overpower and Unleash are. Apart from that, I don't think anyone has a good reason for hitting 50 (or even 30) without a decent idea of how to play their job.

Part of me wants to agree here, but everything is experience. I know Flash, Overpower, HS->SS->BB, Tomahawk all increase enmity and no, I do not know exactly how much. But the little meter under my icon in the party window tells me if I have the aggro locked or not, and those buttons all say that if I press them in the right order, I will move that meter to the red so the bad guys will hate me most. At early levels, always err to the side of MOAR AGGRO if you are tanking. Will it hurt your perfect theoretical DPS? Sure, but who cares so long as you are making your healer's job easier.

That's what playing the game is for. To let experience be your guide.

After that one experience of being yelled at and then clowned, if the GLD in question didn't bail on tanking right then and there, chances are real good their next group in DF didn't need to explain it, eh?

[Jim_Berry]

HAHAHAHA oh man, and this is before level/story jump potions are integrated! LOL

IF they were to include the potions, I think they should be inaccessible until AFTER the player run through the Hall of Novice on that role first.

[Jim_Berry]

I only have a single problem with tank skills while leveling: you can't see the exact enmity modifiers so it's not obvious just how strong Flash, Overpower and Unleash are. Apart from that, I don't think anyone has a good reason for hitting 50 (or even 30) without a decent idea of how to play their job.

In my opinion, I don't need to see the enmity modifies. It simply needs to be known that keeping enmity/hate is the goal, even if it's small. Gaining enmity is gaining enmity, regardless of the source. I just hate players make fun of the PLD if he does Shield Lob > Circle of Scorn > Flash > then begin the Halone combo on a single target (boss), or a WAR tossing Tomahawk > Brutal Swing > Overpower > then begin the Butcher's Block combo, also on a single target (boss); Flash and Overpower being the question.

[dragonseth07]

snip for post length

If I didn't enjoy teaching others, I never would have taught university. I do enjoy seeing people learn and grow. But, teaching taught me one thing very clearly: You can only help so much before people have to start being willing to help themselves.

I helped a lot of students with my Biology courses. I would often see the same student repeatedly. I had a lot of sympathy for everyone who was struggling. Eventually, I realized that many of the people coming back weren't putting in any effort on their own. It was simply easier to rely on my office hours for everything. That's when the sympathy dries up, and I see it a LOT here, too. You say we should teach people how to self-improve. It's as simple as using Google, or Reddit, or these forums. We spend our lives on the internet.

Maybe I'm jaded, but I only really help people who are willing to help themselves, and this game has very few of those people, relatively speaking.

Edit: Just to weigh in on the side conversation, exact enmity modifiers are extremely useful, in my opinion. That said, I am a very mathy person, so I make use of that kind of data pretty readily.