As a healer, is it my job to DPS? A new perspective.

[Wanzer]

I dont want to change the world just would like some unnessary pressure taken away by the designers cos I just feel this healer dps is going too far.

It's not going anywhere, you know. You are only taking it in this way by yourself actually. Perhaps because you aren't in a content made for you, I mean, especially if you still feel some pressure after all your time around. Or just not with the right persons.

You don't want to change the world, but you want to change the actual meta, so... The game itself. Then, yeah, you want to change the world somehow. ^^

We could take Dark Souls as example : I have a friend who never beat the tutorial boss from DSIII, she gave up after many tries because it was too stressful and frustrating for her, despite the fact that she really wanted to know the story, its world, and met the characters of it. But she just failed. Does it mean the game itself was badly designed? Or that we should ask for changes? Because real life can be harsh, we have to remove all of the challenge from any games? I don't think so honestly. It's the same for the savage raid in FFXIV. They aren't made for everyone ; and everyone has to accept it.
I mean, it's like PvP in FFXIV. I badly suck at it, and won't get any of the rewards from it, even if I would love them... But eh... I have to deal with it. I'm not that special person who can get everything from everwhere.

This is a game and can be changed to make it more enjoyable whereas things in RL cant.

Then stop hitting your head on your wall for nothing. Some contents are made for specific players. I mean, you have the choice. Don't try too hard to be part of something if you can't handle it (because of the pressure, or other expectations). You have to accept it too. Unfortunately, we can't have everything. :/
You can work on it, and accept the actual meta, but you can't ask for changes only because you don't feel very comfortable about it.

I have made my own teams yes and if anyone messes up people leave. You do need friends I guess. Its not often you get 7 friends online at once , that want to do the same thing.

I wasn't saying you should play via the party finder, but that you should build your own static group with people who share the same expectations/objectives/etc. Trust me, it would fix every issues that you have with the actual game. Give it a try! Even here, on this forum. Just clearly write what you want in your team, i'm sure you'll find people willing to join you.

Im glad that you have experienced bad groups. While they are frustrating Im happy to just get a clear, but if you dont get one I guess it sucks

I don't know how to take the first part of your sentence. ^^;
And no, we didn't even get a clear. We tried to be really patient and very comprehensive, but it has never worked. Because we didn't have the same goals after all, even if they all joined the group via the same recruitment (so they all knew what we expected from them). So... Yeah. That's also why i'm telling you to find a group with the exact same wishes than you.

I still dont think you totally get what Im saying, but its ok I dont expect everyone to

Actually, I do. Or at least, I believe. But... Thanks.

Yeah, I don't understand why Feyona refuses to see this is a valid option for people. And in general, that all players are free to play with other players who share their goals and play style.

To be honest... I'm totally lost about this... I mean, the answer of all her problems is so simple. '-'

[Feyona]

It's not going anywhere, you know.

perhaps your right but in that game dont you think the designers will listen to their customers and give them an easy mode? You would think game designers would like to make people enjoy their games That would make more sense than wanting round people fit into a square hole. Thats why I guess on this game some find it easy and some find it hard. In order to acheive balance both types have to 'put up ' with something, thats not ideal for them. Yes but I dont think designers want to alienate some off the game. Undue stress put on others by the community is something that can be changed without effecting peoples ability. No one can have it all their way though and not so good players will still struggle but you experts will have your own instancd soon, maybe non dpsing healers may get a break too.

[Taika]

perhaps your right but in that game dont you think the designers will listen to their customers and give them an easy mode?

FFXIV actually has easy modes of Alexander (normal version) and primals (story versions). These are content specifically meant for people who don't want to experience the pressure. Normal version was included in Alexander but wasn't there for Coil. Savage and Extreme versions are specifically designed for players who want to be challenged more than that and can handle that pressure.

[Sebazy]

They could possibly slightly lower the burst damage and increase attrition damage but that's probably the most they could do.

I think there's actually a lot of room for more tank damage, SE just need to rethink how they go about it really. A great example would be something like Turn 4 in ilvl 70-90 gear, the final phases including the fed dreadnaught put out massive quantities of tank damage with nary a tank buster in sight, it was just relentless massive and frequent auto attack damage with various similarly sized ability hits woven in to make the damage spikier and harder to predict. Needless to say, until people were overgearing the encounter, it was firmly a 2 healer workload despite the fact there wasn't a death sentence style hit in sight. By comparison, A9S-A12S's bosses hit for very little, it's not until they are throwing out tank busters or aoes that the numbers start coming at you. You could also take this further with something like the rampage mechanic from Everquest or even just cleave style attacks that need to be shared aka T11. Having a huge swathes of damage across both tanks is also a great recipe for a busy pair of healers.

gear progression means the incoming damage decreases over time, making any gear progression for healers fairly meaningless.

Couldn't agree more, I've gotten less and less enthused about gear upgrades as each raid tier as gone by, you eventually realise that as long as you've got the HP to survive the big hits and the mp to go the distance with a little breathing room for safety, anything else is better given to the DPS/Tanks. IMHO a big part of the problem is the huge gains in VIT we see between tiers. Our best in slot HP has more than doubled through the course of this expansion. Smaller HP gains during progression would help reduce the syndrome of healer#2 feeling more like a third wheel.

One option would be to offer other options in group play that outshine personal damage that people use in solo play, creating a new supportive gameplay style.

Taking this point and running with it somewhat, SE have kind of backed themselves into a corner with healer DPS in that it is all terribly one dimensional, at it's most basic level, you simply apply your dots and then blast away with your biggest single target nuke. When you note that this game is incredibly vague in how it presents dot damage coupled with healer single target nukes being a bit limp across the board (I can't be the only one who misses 3.0's broil noise!) then it's little wonder that such a large proportion of the healer player base feels little inclination to use these abilities. It's not until you get to the progression raiders looking at logs and encounter data where they realise the potential since SE themselves do such a poor job of putting that across.

Personally, I think the best way forward without being too radical is to consider adding small side effects to healer DD. It doesn't have to be massive or game changing, it just has to be rewarding and have a tangible positive effect for the group beyond some weedy number flashing by on your screen for a split second. There's a wealth of options out there, small splash healing around the target you're nuking, specific vulnerability debuffs for a few seconds etc. SCH/SMN's energy drain has the right idea, SE just need to take that ball and run with it.

FFXIV actually has easy modes of Alexander (normal version) and primals (story versions).

It's also worth refreshing the point that savage/extreme content gradually gets toned down over time via item level upgrades and the echo buff. This game most definitely caters for the more casual raider, the only real issue is that the smaller 8 man raid size means that one weak link can be a much bigger detriment to the overall raid than in a significantly larger group as seen elsewhere.

maybe non dpsing healers may get a break too.

Zero DPS healers will likely always get frowned upon in the progression raiding scene as things stand because frankly, that's currently either a poor standard of play, sheer laziness or just plain not caring. However, I can tell you without a shadow of doubt that if you combine rock solid consistency, good communication, the ability to listen and learn from mistakes, the capacity to adjust and react to situations without getting flustered, a willingness to never stop trying to improve and a strong drive to solo heal as much of an encounter as is possible as early as you can reliably do so along with a DPS heavy healing partner who you can coordinate well with then you will go far.

TLDR: Being dependable, consistent and low maintenance counts for just as much as your raw healer DPS. Any group leader that stubbornly claims otherwise isn't one I'd particularly relish raiding for.

[Feyona]

I think there's actually a lot of room for more tank damage, SE just need to rethink how they go about it really.

I agree there could possibly be more of an enjoyment factor to encourage healers to dps more if there really is no other choices on game than to dps (yawn). I keep suggesting getting rid of cleric and makie dps more of a dynamic part of healing. keep thinking of how much fun dsc priest was to play in wow. It wasnt an 'idle' class to play it was a class that you had to 'think' about how to play though. Because its heals were low its dps was quite high and was a shield healer. I play here cos I prefer the game. Classes were fun, wow wasnt an easy to heal game and healers and healing had much more respect

[Wanzer]

perhaps your right but in that game dont you think the designers will listen to their customers and give them an easy mode?

Well, there is an easy mode in FFXIV. ^^
And there are many games where the best rewards are in the hardest difficulty, like infinite ammo, costumes, that kind of crap, or like FFXIV : useless titles, mounts etc. You should see the whole thing like this actually.

And no, some customers like having a certain level of challenge. If you can beat everything while watching Netflix and eating some doritos then... I'm not sure we could still describe it as a game. You know, the thrill of the fight and the satisfaction to win... ( * ^*)9

edit :

...

Damn, i'm too slow... Again. ;^;

[Feyona]

Well, there is an easy mode in FFXIV. ^^
And there are many games where the best rewards are in the hardest difficulty, like infinite ammo, costumes, that kind of crap, or like FFXIV : useless titles, mounts etc. You should see the whole thing like this actually.

And no, some customers like having a certain level of challenge. If you can beat everything while watching Netflix and eating some doritos then... I'm not sure we could still describe it as a game. You know, the thrill of the fight and the satisfaction to win... ( * ^*)9

edit :

Damn, i'm too slow... Again. ;^;

yes well hard mode isnt a challenge at all. And a completely futile excercise as it has no reward for me at all. So if thats all I could do I wouldnt bother playing anyway. Im end game. So Im enterely with you in your points and keep saying people need enjoyable challenges note the word ' enjoyable' Not in fear of being kicked cos as a healer they cant dps constantly

[Bourne_Endeavor]

perhaps your right but in that game dont you think the designers will listen to their customers and give them an easy mode? You would think game designers would like to make people enjoy their games That would make more sense than wanting round people fit into a square hole. Thats why I guess on this game some find it easy and some find it hard. In order to acheive balance both types have to 'put up ' with something, thats not ideal for them. Yes but I dont think designers want to alienate some off the game. Undue stress put on others by the community is something that can be changed without effecting peoples ability. No one can have it all their way though and not so good players will still struggle but you experts will have your own instancd soon, maybe non dpsing healers may get a break too.

They did listen. Creator is significantly easier than Midas or Gordias. If either of those raid difficulties were applicable to this discussion, healer DPS wouldn't be debated it would be downright required by everyone. With Gordias, if you spotted than 400-500 DPS on Scholar, you were kicked. Likewise, Paladin wasn't a fringe job but near universally regretted. And it wasn't entirely for meta reason but sheer necessity. The DPS checks were quite literally impossible to reach without healers adding to the mix. Compare this to Creator where you theoretically could go the whole fight without ever turning on Cleric once and it's an enormous difference. Were it made any easier, endgame raiding would be fundamentally pointless. The issue is how healing works in FFXIV. Until content requires more direct healing, people will adapt around DPS, especially at the Savage level. No amount of complaining will ever change that. Your options are to find a group willing to accommodate your preference to primarily heal (but not solo heal) or accept Savage simply isn't for you.

Like how we cannot force you to DPS, you cannot force the community to radically change based around your preferences.

[Feyona]

They did listen. Creator is significantly easier than Midas or Gordias. If either of those raid difficulties were applicable to this discussion, healer DPS wouldn't be debated it would be downright required by everyone. With Gordias, if you spotted than 400-500 DPS on Scholar, you were kicked.

Like how we cannot force you to DPS, you cannot force the community to radically change based around your preferences.

No you cant force like that cos no one is forced to play the game, but one could say overt and covert pressure to do it is the same thing as being forced after all, like you say no group will have a non dpsing sch. The majority of statics inly want sch for that reason and the rest of the community expect it. No one is harrassing you though to do something you dont enjoy. Bit of a difference in the two comparisons