As a healer, is it my job to DPS? A new perspective.

[Taika]

This is why people have to find the right team, or to make their own.

Yeah, I don't understand why Feyona refuses to see this is a valid option for people. And in general, that all players are free to play with other players who share their goals and play style.

In our FC, since we have many freshly returned players who haven't done any Savage raiding at all, we for example started a group that runs once a week, starting from Alexander Savage floor 1. We don't have any requirements: people aren't for example expected to know anything at all about the fights beforehand (we learn as we wipe), have any melds, or use food or potions, and we don't discuss anyone's gear, rotations or DPS at all (other than when we should push harder as a team to beat certain phase and how we could do it). We're now on the last boss of A6S and after we beat it we'll be moving on to A9S, trying to get some of Creator cleared before SB. But the point is just to get some casual raiding experience, have a good time laughing at ourselves as we die, and often even managing to kill stuff somehow.

You can play this content however you want. You just need to find the people who share your goals and play style for it. No one is going to stop you.

[Sebazy]

As far as the healing 'meta' goes, the developers themselves squarely put healer DPS on the map with Gordias Savage progression and it's incredible DPS checks vs mostly rather easy going tank damage. Regardless of what Yoshida's team says. A2S rewarded SCH DPS far too much with previously unthinkable numbers being fairly easy to achieve whilst A4S pre echo flat out required everyone to min max their DPS to their limits, healers included.

Look at it this way, hitting the original Coil turn 1 in ilvl 70 darklight for the first time was eye opening to say the least, you had two bosses smashing two tanks into the ground with non stop massive damage. Even with the popularity of bards and thus having ballad on tap, that was a hefty workout for both healers.

Turn 11 is probably my favourite example of when SE get the healing requirements spot on though. Even though it was just a single boss, it cleaved it's way through two tanks and it took some significant gear upgrades before it was viable to 1 tank 1 heal that.

Healer DPS wasn't anything like the big deal in Coil compared to how it is now. TLDR: A2S put it on the map, A4S made it 'mandatory' for progression raiding.

And whilst the Alex and Midas tiers are significantly easier going on DPS checks, they've both been comparatively easy on the HPS requirements with only A8S really standing out as the exception (and then only really at certain points).

For anyone who joined post Heavensward, if you really want to sink your teeth into some proper old fashioned heal checks, give min ilvl T1 and T11 a try. T1 is a relatively simple test of sheer throughput with some straightforward mechanics on the side. T11 at min ilvl is one of favourite encounters in the game imo and is a challenge for every single role including us healy healers. I can't recommend it enough.

[Kitfox]

You have no idea how much I want to talk about game design and meta shifting within the mechanics.

Let's talk about that, sounds much more interesting than the last 80 pages.

The problem with the game mechanics is that if you take healer DPS away, healing becomes a hollow experience. The entire content and job design of healing needs to be designed around being healer centric, and it is in fact designed around DPS (Holy, Miasma, Bio, Stone, Aero, Broil, Gravity, Combust etc.), and healers need new mechanics to replace and shift the healing meta before anything of note will happen.

The game being designed the way it is currently, I don't think healers should be any more healer centric than they currently are. They could possibly slightly lower the burst damage and increase attrition damage but that's probably the most they could do. The problem with focusing too much on healing is that the amount healing needed is always hard capped by incoming damage, and gear progression means the incoming damage decreases over time, making any gear progression for healers fairly meaningless. A friend pointed out that the way this is tackled in other games is that you can drop healers out of the group in favour of more damage when the gear allows it, however, this isn't all that practical in FFXIV when the game forces a 2/2/4 setup for most content. Another reason they can't fully get rid of damage spells is because all classes need to be able to solo certain content. That means we're left with a problem: What should healers do with surplus time and resources that aren't spent on healing?

One option would be to offer other options in group play that outshine personal damage that people use in solo play, creating a new supportive gameplay style.

The actions players are able to use can be roughly divide into: Attacking, Healing, Buffing and Debuffing. Furthermore, buffing and debuffing can be divided into offensive and defensive sides. Defensive buffs play into the damage mitigation and healing side, so it's probably best if we forget about them for now. We're left with offensive buffs and debuffs.

Offensive buffs and debuffs would be the easiest way to build into a more supportive playstyle. To keep the role active, these actions would also need to have a short duration, perhaps a regular GCD length. Examples could be like a castable Life Surge on any party member, or casted Trick Attack on the enemy, perhaps with a 3-5 second duration.

If they wanted to go with a more of a "management" type gameplay, the (de)buffs could be longer but weaker in power. The gameplay would then consist of keeping multiple different buffs and debuffs up in a rotation, similar to DoTs. AST kind of already plays into this, despite the long CD on cards and the RNG, although card management is off the GCD so it doesn't have the opportunity cost of damage spells.

I guess my suggestion for new support style mechanics would be offensive buffs and debuffs on GCD, that directly compete with the opportunity cost of nuking in party scenarios.

[Feyona]

^Yes, try this.

I dont want to change the world just would like some unnessary pressure taken away by the designers cos I just feel this healer dps is going too far. This is a game and can be changed to make it more enjoyable whereas things in RL cant. I think people may play to get away from that harsh reality of having to perform to what standard others want if you try your best, its still not right. Im glad that you have experienced bad groups. While they are frustrating Im happy to just get a clear, but if you dont get one I guess it sucks yeah but I have to go through several groups before I get one. And its not healer dps at fault . I have made my own teams yes and if anyone messes up people leave. You do need friends I guess. Its not often you get 7 friends online at once , that want to do the same thing. I wasnt the first to use the word rules . I still dont think you totally get what Im saying, but its ok I dont expect everyone to

[Zojha]

The problem with focusing too much on healing is that the amount healing needed is always hard capped by incoming damage, and gear progression means the incoming damage decreases over time, making any gear progression for healers fairly meaningless.

Well, it's true that trying to eliminate healer downtime is futile - But the stronger healers are, i.e. the less healing centric they are, the more likely they are to be dropped for another DPS.

If both your healers struggle to get by just healing, gear progression will not allow you to drop either of them until the next expansion. One of them will be able to focus more on DPSing or debuffing as you progress and they will stop struggling, but you won't be able to drop one. That only works if you barely need a second one in the first place and the gear pushes you over the line. We're actually much closer to the latter than the prior case right now, considering how much healers are DPSing even during progression.

So it is rather imperative to actually make healers more healing centric. Naturally, excellent and highly overgeared healers will still have downtime and spare resources and will want to do something with it - that's where offensive buffs come into play, I totally agree. But the first approach is to cut down on downtime and resource surplus. And I personally see Mana management as a good way to do that.

[Feyona]

Yeah, I don't understand why Feyona refuses to see this is a valid option for people. And in general, that all players are free to play with other players who share their goals and play style.



You can play this content however you want. You just need to find the people who share your goals and play style for it. No one is going to stop you.

I just dont understand why you constantly think you know or dont know what I understand or make assumptions about what I do or dont do. Theres only one person here that knows and thats me. So maybe you should address me directlyand ask if I understand instead of assuming to others that I dont

[Taika]

I just dont understand why you constantly think you know or dont know what I understand or make assumptions about what I do or dont do. Theres only one person here that knows and thats me. So maybe you should address me directlyand ask if I understand instead of assuming to others that I dont

In countless posts in this thread you are implying that healers cannot currently take part in Savage content without feeling "constant daily pressure". Based on that (what you have wrote, nothing more, nothing less), I have understood that you don't see casual, pressure-free raiding as an option for healers in current environment. Do you think I have misunderstood your point? If so, please explain how. I don't intend to misunderstand you on purpose.

[Feyona]

Well, it's true that trying to eliminate healer downtime

So it is rather imperative to actually make healers more healing centric. Naturally, excellent and highly overgeared healers will still have downtime and spare resources and will want to do something with it - that's where offensive buffs come into play, I totally agree. But the first approach is to cut down on downtime and resource surplus. And I personally see Mana management as a good way to do that.

mana management was introduced in wow. By the start of warlords no one had enough mana to heal through a raid except a holy pala. It was very frustrating. Dont ask for annoying frustrating features because it really was crap to heal. Suggest something more enjoyable not a huge handicap where you have to stand around for half the fight cos you have no mana to do anything at all.

[Wanzer]

I dont want to change the world just would like some unnessary pressure taken away by the designers cos I just feel this healer dps is going too far.

It's not going anywhere, you know. You are only taking it in this way by yourself actually. Perhaps because you aren't in a content made for you, I mean, especially if you still feel some pressure after all your time around. Or just not with the right persons.

You don't want to change the world, but you want to change the actual meta, so... The game itself. Then, yeah, you want to change the world somehow. ^^

We could take Dark Souls as example : I have a friend who never beat the tutorial boss from DSIII, she gave up after many tries because it was too stressful and frustrating for her, despite the fact that she really wanted to know the story, its world, and met the characters of it. But she just failed. Does it mean the game itself was badly designed? Or that we should ask for changes? Because real life can be harsh, we have to remove all of the challenge from any games? I don't think so honestly. It's the same for the savage raid in FFXIV. They aren't made for everyone ; and everyone has to accept it.
I mean, it's like PvP in FFXIV. I badly suck at it, and won't get any of the rewards from it, even if I would love them... But eh... I have to deal with it. I'm not that special person who can get everything from everwhere.

This is a game and can be changed to make it more enjoyable whereas things in RL cant.

Then stop hitting your head on your wall for nothing. Some contents are made for specific players. I mean, you have the choice. Don't try too hard to be part of something if you can't handle it (because of the pressure, or other expectations). You have to accept it too. Unfortunately, we can't have everything. :/
You can work on it, and accept the actual meta, but you can't ask for changes only because you don't feel very comfortable about it.

I have made my own teams yes and if anyone messes up people leave. You do need friends I guess. Its not often you get 7 friends online at once , that want to do the same thing.

I wasn't saying you should play via the party finder, but that you should build your own static group with people who share the same expectations/objectives/etc. Trust me, it would fix every issues that you have with the actual game. Give it a try! Even here, on this forum. Just clearly write what you want in your team, i'm sure you'll find people willing to join you.

Im glad that you have experienced bad groups. While they are frustrating Im happy to just get a clear, but if you dont get one I guess it sucks

I don't know how to take the first part of your sentence. ^^;
And no, we didn't even get a clear. We tried to be really patient and very comprehensive, but it has never worked. Because we didn't have the same goals after all, even if they all joined the group via the same recruitment (so they all knew what we expected from them). So... Yeah. That's also why i'm telling you to find a group with the exact same wishes than you.

I still dont think you totally get what Im saying, but its ok I dont expect everyone to

Actually, I do. Or at least, I believe. But... Thanks.

Yeah, I don't understand why Feyona refuses to see this is a valid option for people. And in general, that all players are free to play with other players who share their goals and play style.

To be honest... I'm totally lost about this... I mean, the answer of all her problems is so simple. '-'

[Feyona]

In countless posts in this thread you are implying that healers cannot currently take part in Savage content without feeling "constant daily pressure". Based on that (what you have wrote, nothing more, nothing less), I have understood that you don't see casual, pressure-free raiding as an option for healers in current environment. Do you think I have misunderstood your point? If so, please explain how. I don't intend to misunderstand you on purpose.

Read my posts I was talking about zurvan farms and people expecting that healer dps makes them skip soar. Which maybe it helps, but already said if both healers are full on at start and you dont then its not healers to blame. But I was also referring to the fact that I see healers failing to heal properly when under pressure to dps. Some of my friends hate zurvan because of it and because they already got the bird dont want to step foot in there again so it isnt such a big option as your saying.