As a healer, is it my job to DPS? A new perspective.

[Taika]

No, they're not. If the argument is 2+2=4, you can not argue back that the 2 should be a 1 because it feels too much pressure to be a 2. It just doesn't work like that.

Exactly. And I do think it's good to also discuss personal experiences and feelings etc. related to the game here, just don't mix them up with the discussions of optimal play. The problem with trying to discuss with Feyona is that when someone presents her some actual facts backed by numbers she just completely ignores them and starts to talk about feelings and experiences instead.

[Feyona]

Whatever you think of my stance, you are the people enforcing this onto others in a sort of dictatorial way, if you want to play chess, go play chess no,one is going to crap on your board, maybe your crapping on mine. Seriously, though if this trend continues of constant daily pressure you will not be seeing me in the game in future and if I feel like it Im betting others feel the same as well, like the statement in an earlier post from someone that says shes glad she didnt get HW if this is how the community is.

[Taika]

If the game experience truly is "constant daily pressure" for you or anyone else, I think it might be the best choice to switch it to something more pleasant and relaxing. My personal experience is that there is not much pressure towards anyone in any content outside Savage, and even that (or at least first two floors) can be run very casually now with Echo and overgearing. I have not witnessed the pressure you're describing, although I don't claim it doesn't exist for some players. But it may not also be nearly as widespread as you imagine (or it would probably be much more visible on these forums too).

Also, please don't accuse anyone you haven't played with about "enforcing" anything to anyone "in a dictatorial way", that's just ridiculous.

[Kitfox]

Also, please don't accuse anyone you haven't played with about "enforcing" anything to anyone "in a dictatorial way", that's just ridiculous.

Exactly this. Theoretical discussion about optimal play doesn't dictate how people play in practice, and how people play in practice doesn't dictate how they treat other people.

...Im betting others feel the same as well...

I suggest you let others fend for themselves, otherwise you're just making baseless assumptions about people that might or might not exist, just as you're making assumptions about people pressuring others into things just because they know how to play optimally.

[Feyona]

No, they're not. If the argument is 2+2=4, you can not argue back that the 2 should be a 1 because it feels too much pressure to be a 2. It just doesn't work like that.

You may think you can separate them but the very concept of separating out one thing from another in anything is in fact an illusion, philosophical or not, scientific or not or even accademic or not . This is the experience of the game. Expection = judgement = sentence = execution. I dont need numbers to state that my experience is real. One way of looking at it you can just talk about numbers if you wish but I get it , it just doesnt change the experience of the game

[Feyona]

Exactly this. Theoretical discussion about optimal play doesn't dictate how people play in practice, and how people play in practice doesn't dictate how they treat other people.


I suggest you let others fend for themselves, otherwise you're just making baseless assumptions about people that might or might not exist, just as you're making assumptions about people pressuring others into things just because they know how to play optimally.

what you dont get is that Im not talking about one individual or even 2 Im talking of the pressure of the meta and also if you like, the pressure even in this discussion to shut up and do as Im told because its so much 'better' to do it your way. Try to think outside the box of ' this is how its done' If you are the owner of a game (forget about individuals here) that you want people to enjoy, would say ' if you dont like it go play something else' especially as its not the game designers that make the meta. Again I get this trend in your posts to think that anyone not willing to play your way, or cant play your way should be excluded. You are one of the poeple enforcing the meta may some should be forced not to. That can be done by disabling cleric, or making healing requirement higher whatever they do I hope it changes I do apologise it wasnt you I was referring to 'my bad' maybe I shoul be kicked iut the forum for making a mistake.

[Kitfox]

...Im talking of the pressure of the meta...

If you think game design is oppressive, you need to make suggestion about game changes, not argue about meta gameplay or player treatment. Those are seperate issues.

...its not the game designers that make the meta...

Game developers make the meta, because they design the rules of the game. Some consequences of design choices might be unintended, but nevertheless it's not something that players make, players only apply math and logic to play efficiently according to the rules presented. There's nothing we can do about the meta because we don't make the changes in game code. Discussion about gameplay and suggestions about game changes are, again, seperate topics and shouldn't be mixed.

Again I get this trend in your posts to think that anyone not willing to play your way, or cant play your way should be excluded.

This is exactly opposite of what I'm saying. You're free to do whatever you want in the game, but because you're unable to conceptually comprehend the difference between that and theoretical meta, you're not understanding me. The meta doesn't change no matter what you think or do in game. It only changes when game design and abilities change. We can't just lump all things together and apply the same arguments to them.

Meta is theoretical and based on math and game design. Enforcing meta is based on interpersonal relations and moral values. Suggestions about future features or changes are based on the wishes and hopes of players. These are all seperate topics.

[Feyona]

If you think game design is oppressive, you need to make suggestion about game changes, not argue about meta gameplay or player treatment. Those are seperate issues.



This is exactly opposite of what I'm saying. You're free to do whatever you want in the game, but because you're unable to conceptually comprehend the difference between that and theoretical meta, you're not understanding me. The meta doesn't change no matter what you think or do in game. It only changes when game design and abilities change. We can't just lump all things together and apply the same arguments to them

I already have made suggestion in multipal threads of how it should be changed. The designers dont enforce the meta, the community does and thats why Im saying to the community what I find wrong with it. I amended my post It was not you I was referring to, anything else? Oh yes you cant measure enjoyment or pressure they are feelings, but do matter very much on a game and its popularity. Plus these discussions here were never intended to be just theorhetical ones. There are so many diverse discussions on here from all different perspectives but we are all talking about the same game. And whatever angle you come from, everyone's opinion is valid and I dont dismiss your theories Im talking about the application of it and how it effects the game experience for people. I will say though that even if im not highly siklled on game there is nothing wrong with my brain or ability to understand concepts. Actually there is nothing wrong with theory it the way people use it that matters. Same as theory in accademic subjects there are strict rules of how its applied in order to protect people from those abusing their position. Interesting or not my first thought will be if Im happy or others are happy with it. If you work with others there should always be negotiation of what the other is comfortable with, where some would rather just exclude people not following their 'rules' I dont really think its the way to help everyone to enjoy themselves. How many people do you think these rules exclude? I bet its quite alot , thats also whats wrong with high expectations of people at end game and perhaps why people leave the game. Im not professing to know all facts and figures but Im thinking of leaving the game because of it.

[Wanzer]

Im talking of the pressure of the meta

Try to think outside the box

^Yes, try this.
If you feel a certain pressure then maybe you aren't where you should be. You can't ask for changes only to fit with you and your lack of confidence. Especially if other players have no issue at all.
And it's not like there is nothing else to do in the game, eh.

This is the experience of the game. Expection = judgement = sentence = execution. I dont need numbers to state that my experience is real.

It's basically how everything works. Of course people have expectations and these expectations bring judgements... I mean... You don't have to be a genius to know how social interactions work. Everything is the same ! You wait something from someone, you don't see what you wanted to see (especially if it was needed and not unrealistic), then of course you say something about it... And of course you do something to change the situation. I don't see the problem there honestly.

I still have the feeling that you can't take any words. I mean, as if you just don't want to hear anything, and asking people to deal with it, even if you don't fit with them. But It's not possible. Trust me, I tried. I was still in a static group a few weeks ago. Half of the team was kinda... Not bad, but not good either. But I waited too long to say something, because I was waiting to see a change. And it never happened. Even if we tried many times to talk about what was wrong, even if our expectations weren't that high, it was only very frustrating at the end.

So, yeah, it's necessary to say something as soon as possible, or you'll end up just wasting their time and yours, and probably being bitter about people (exactly what happened to me). And It's important to know if you are at the right place too. It doesn't matter if you want to do a certain content, and how high is your ego, if you are in constant pressure then you should just do something else or find a group with expectations that you are able to provide. It is that simple.
^exactly why i'm not playing Overwatch in competitive mode for example. I would love to, especially being a part of a team but...

And... Why did we travel back in time? What happened to the other timeline? :/
Oh, at least now I know what a pigeon chess is. Thanks, Lambdafish !

everyone's opinion is valid and I dont dismiss your theories Im talking about the application of it and how it effects the game experience for people.

Yeah, right, and this is why we have seen people asking for an easy mode on Dark Souls also. You just can't ask the whole world to lower itself for you, and sometimes you have to accept it.

It reminds this... Somehow...

If you work with others there should always be negotiation of what the other is comfortable with, where some would rather just exclude people not following their 'rules' I dont really think its the way to help everyone to enjoy themselves.

This is why people have to find the right team, or to make their own.

How many people do you think these rules exclude? I bet its quite alot ,

What rules ?
Well, I don't know. Would it be fair to force people to crawl when they are able to run? It makes sense that people want to play with other people who share the same point of view/expectations/playstyle/etc. Still don't see why it's a problem.

thats also whats wrong with high expectations of people at end game and perhaps why people leave the game. Im not professing to know all facts and figures but Im thinking of leaving the game because of it.

Because you can't make your own team? Do you know that you can play the game without joining a hardcore static group?
We are kinda back on the "it's everything or nothing". It's impossible, Feyona. You can't force people to play with you if you have different opinions on how the things should work. And making negotiations don't work. As I said, I tried, and it was awful and frustrating. Just play with people who look like you : it's that easy.

[Lambdafish]

Whatever you think of my stance, you are the people enforcing this onto others in a sort of dictatorial way, if you want to play chess, go play chess no,one is going to crap on your board, maybe your crapping on mine. Seriously, though if this trend continues of constant daily pressure you will not be seeing me in the game in future and if I feel like it Im betting others feel the same as well, like the statement in an earlier post from someone that says shes glad she didnt get HW if this is how the community is.

Wow, you really butchered the point of the saying...

Game developers make the meta, because they design the rules of the game. Some consequences of design choices might be unintended, but nevertheless it's not something that players make, players only apply math and logic to play efficiently according to the rules presented. There's nothing we can do about the meta because we don't make the changes in game code. Discussion about gameplay and suggestions about game changes are, again, seperate topics and shouldn't be mixed.

You have no idea how much I want to talk about game design and meta shifting within the mechanics, but it is all bogged down by finger pointing and blaming within the community. You are right that meta is designed on a mechanics level, and the community only adopts and wears it. I would love to talk about new mechanics that could be added that would keep healers occupied and close the DPS gaps, because I believe that healer DPS shouldn't be a thing, and that the content should be designed so that the healers are occupied with something else.

The problem with the game mechanics is that if you take healer DPS away, healing becomes a hollow experience. The entire content and job design of healing needs to be designed around being healer centric, and it is in fact designed around DPS (Holy, Miasma, Bio, Stone, Aero, Broil, Gravity, Combust etc.), and healers need new mechanics to replace and shift the healing meta before anything of note will happen. This is NOT the communitys fault Feyona, and all you are doing by pointing fingers is being toxic and accusing players who are just following the game design flow of the game.