Are tanks a scapegoat for performance issues?

[Lyth]

Although this is a cooperative game, the average player treats combat as if it's single player. Instead of learning and understanding the fights as a whole, they learn it only as it relates to their specific job. If you ask someone what a particular mechanic does, they probably won't know it unless it directly relates to them. For that matter, players often don't know what their own abilities are for if they don't directly benefit their own gameplay (What's Shadewalker?) Most interpersonal conflicts between players during raiding happen when the fight didn't play out exactly the way that they expected it to in their head, forcing them to adapt and respond on the fly.

One of the reasons why dps roles are so popular is because you can get away with this type of mindset. There's just you and the target dummy, with the game throwing set mechanics that you've been trained to either respond to or ignore. You can treat healing like this as well, as the core of your role revolves around responding to a pattern of timed attacks. When someone takes avoidable damage or dies, however, you suddenly get yanked out of single player mode and are forced to respond. Healers don't get frustrated by having to heal expected damage. They get frustrated by having to heal unexpected damage. Granted, skilled healers have situational awareness and are good team players, but your garden-variety healer is capable of tunnelling on their whack-a-mole mini-game just as hard as any dps can.

Tanking is fundamentally different. Because the mobs are linked to your position, and everyone else's position is linked to the mobs, you are either directly or indirectly responsible for every event that happens on the battlefield. Your goal is to set up the fight so that it happens exactly the way the other seven players are expecting it to happen (irrespective of whether those expectations are incompatible with each other). In order to do this, you need to understand what every mechanic does, to have situational awareness of what every player is trying to do, to try and facilitate their gameplay, and to tie everything together as best as you can. Your job is to take seven independent single player games and wrangle it into one cooperative game.

[Jim_Berry]

Oh trust me I know when dps are screwing up hence zurvan extreme shouldnt even see way cannon in second phase but so far every group Ive been in has seen it, I at the point now where I think lots of dps just do their combos

That's not entirely a DPS screw up; it's the community that makes it mandatory to skip phases. You can see Soar in the beginning, you can see extra wave cannons. If the boss dies, he dies.

I personally feel as though if people want certain things done, then why do they put up PF groups? Why not just recruit people that YOU know who are capable of pushing through phases? Why set it up for a PUG and the complain about seeing two Demon's Claw? I understand it's a farm, but farms are getting the kill/item and do it again. People mistake "farm" for "grind".

[Jim_Berry]

Although this is a cooperative game, the average player treats combat as if it's single player. Instead of learning and understanding the fights as a whole, they learn it only as it relates to their specific job. If you ask someone what a particular mechanic does, they probably won't know it unless it directly relates to them. For that matter, players often don't know what their own abilities are for if they don't directly benefit their own gameplay (What's Shadewalker?) Most interpersonal conflicts between players during raiding happen when the fight didn't play out exactly the way that they expected it to in their head, forcing them to adapt and respond on the fly.

*SNIP*

Not to mention being told to have some knowledge by watching a video. I joined an A11S learning party a while back and watch a video about 3 times before the group filled. We go in, and the video I watched did not matched the way the group wanted to run mechanics.

People also need to discuss "new" strats BEFORE entering, because in most PUGs, players know the "known" way to handle the fight.

[dragonseth07]

That's not entirely a DPS screw up; it's the community that makes it mandatory to skip phases. You can see Soar in the beginning, you can see extra wave cannons. If the boss dies, he dies.

I personally feel as though if people want certain things done, then why do they put up PF groups? Why not just recruit people that YOU know who are capable of pushing through phases? Why set it up for a PUG and the complain about seeing two Demon's Claw? I understand it's a farm, but farms are getting the kill/item and do it again. People mistake "farm" for "grind".

If the community wants a high standard for DPS, that's a good thing. Less leeches getting carried.

PF is the tool for recruiting for a specific purpose like that. So... That's why. Also, farm parties aren't just about killing it. They're about doing it as fast as possible so that you can get more kills done in less time. Farming should be efficient. People that join farms and underperform are the worst.

[ChloeGrace]

The DPS meta has forced the community to adopt this attitude, and the devs have done nothing to discourage it. In fact, quite the opposite.

Healers get told they are being carried when their dps is below expectations.
Tanks are ridiculed for being able to match (or exceed) pure DPS jobs' output while still maintaining full enmity control.
That's the way the game was (really poorly) designed and built.

[Ilan]

Oh trust me I know when dps are screwing up hence zurvan extreme shouldnt even see way cannon in second phase but so far every group Ive been in has seen it, I at the point now where I think lots of dps just do their combos

All fights would be way better if you couldn't skip anything. When i remember these "skip soar or disband" partys i'm still facepalming because most of the people who opened the partys are people who don't do anything to skip it because they hit like a wet noodle (counts for ANY class) and even mess up a simple mechanic like soar.

Point is that most of the people in this community are to lazy to improve in any way, they want plain easy stuff where they just have to press 1,2,3. The sad part is that SE goes their way instead of telling them to git gud.

[dragonseth07]

The DPS meta has forced the community to adopt this attitude, and the devs have done nothing to discourage it. In fact, quite the opposite.

Healers get told they are being carried when their dps is below expectations.
Tanks are ridiculed for being able to match (or exceed) pure DPS jobs' output while still maintaining full enmity control.
That's the way the game was (really poorly) designed and built.

If the community develops a higher standard for expected play, that is a GOOD thing. Increasing the skill level of the playerbase should be a goal.

[ToasterMan]

This is so true. Unless of course there's a significant DPS check, but we can't have those in casual content now can we because that'd be mean.

You don't really see them in casual content because DPS jobs are significantly harder to play mechanically than a Healer or a Tank. Sure it's more visible when a Healer or Tank fails but MECHANICALLY, their jobs aren't that difficult to preform. Healers and Tanks don't have to deal with mechanics like Enochian and Wanderers Minute. It was already a nightmare going into Neverreap as a BLM. Imagine if they put strict DPS checks on top of it.

[Lyth]

If that's the case, we should probably start running level 60 dungeons with 3 tanks and a healer. The tanks and healers in your typical duty finder roulette seem to consistently outperform the dps anyways, in terms of game mechanics, general awareness, and damage output. Imagine the dps and mechanics checks that the devs could implement if they did. Neverreap would never be the same again.

[ChloeGrace]

If the community develops a higher standard for expected play, that is a GOOD thing. Increasing the skill level of the playerbase should be a goal.

Except that it's not increasing "skill level", it's only maximizing dps during downtime when you aren't actively playing your role (i.e. enmity control or healing). That's not skill.
When an encounter is adjusted to require players to use their abilities to perform their roles 100% of the time in order to clear, then it develops player skill.