Anyone else wish RDM was a PURE support class?

[Tanathya]

What exactly is not faithful with DRK? No cast from HP moves, but there's a couple drain ones, and DRK has always been one of the tankiest jobs.

As I've always said, give DRK its signature ability, which is to spend HP to deal more damage (the definition of a tank), not the drains, and keep it a tank. Let's see how tanky DRK has always been.

[SaitoHikari]

The problem is, what do you even define as support? How does one create a support class in a game such as this that won't already cross into healer or DPS territory? Because the way I see it, the only way to justify shoehorning in a support category in this game would be to take away or greatly diminish utility from already existing healers and DPS in the form of party buffs and debuffs.

The closest things we have to support classes in FFXIV are Bards and Machinist, and both already have the lowest population of players that actually main the classes in the game (much less actually skilled at them - there's a reason why there are ALWAYS raid PFs looking for good Bards and Machinists). On one hand, reclassifying them into a new support category that is actually reflected in dungeon queues would make their queues much faster. But this will also likely result in completely unintended consequences for content design and the community at large (queues for 8/24 man content may take even longer to pop, especially OLDER content).

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

I dont know about blm either, its traditionally only ever had ice, fire, and bolt, with a few non aspected spells like bio and flare at the time, at least in tactics

[Feidam]

Nope as that is not what the Red Mage is.

[ErryK]

I don't believe that is the case anymore

Suddenly MCH is pure DPS. Things like Dismantle, Rend Mind, Heavy, Bind, Silence, Stun, MP and TP Regen just don't exist.

To be honest, the mindset of pure support classes is just not able to be a thing in a game like XIV. The way fights happen in XIV, means all DPS need to do some form of damage, more than a support class can offer...

The only way support jobs can be a thing right now is if they increase parties and add a necessary support slot, but this brings the issue of balance because all duties will retroactively allow 5/9/27 people when now they only allowed 4/8/24.

[Laerune]

For me RDM is a class that does melee dps, can cast white and black magick spells, the perfect jack of all trades, but from what I have heard from the interviews, the FFXIV RDM will be a BLM with a staff + rapier hybrid weapon and will be a dps caster. Aside from the weapon and outfit, one has to wonder if this is a RDM at all....

I guess its too early to worry, I will wait till I hear more from Yoshi-P.

On-topic:

Yes, I wish it was a pure support class or a hybrid DPS/Healer.

[Stitches1974]

Aside from the weapon and outfit, one has to wonder if this is a RDM at all....

I guess its too early to worry, I will wait till I hear more from Yoshi-P.

F: Some players might have been surprised with the fact that Red Mage will be DPS.
Y: I also have the image of the Red Mage being a hybrid job between Black and White Mage. However, we had to fit it into the FFXIV formula. Otherwise, it might turn out as a job that isn’t too useful. FFXIV is a standalone title in the FF series, so while keeping the essential roots of the Red Mage job in general, it will be unique to XIV, as well. You will see it as a new type of Red Mage.



http://gamerescape.com/2016/12/26/fa...festival-2016/

[Jerbob]

I personally wouldn't like to see RDM as a pure support job, no more than I want to see it as a pure magic nuking role.

I strongly believe that RDM should be the hybrid it's always been in Final Fantasy. If SE aren't willing to do that in XIV, then I would rather not see RDM... ahem... "reinterpreted" like SMN, BRD, possibly DRK etc have been. I want them to do it right - or don't do it at all!

If, however, I were forced to choose between pure nuking and pure support roles for RDM, I'd think I'd find the support option much more interesting. I definitely understand where the OP is coming from.

Questionably relevant RDM musings

F: Some players might have been surprised with the fact that Red Mage will be DPS.
Y: I also have the image of the Red Mage being a hybrid job between Black and White Mage. However, we had to fit it into the FFXIV formula. Otherwise, it might turn out as a job that isn’t too useful. FFXIV is a standalone title in the FF series, so while keeping the essential roots of the Red Mage job in general, it will be unique to XIV, as well. You will see it as a new type of Red Mage.

I mean, this is pretty much the essence of it, isn't it. I'm not sure myself and the producer have the same ideas of what RDM's "essential roots" are. Why bother introducing RDM into XIV if it's a "new type of Red Mage", i.e. not Red Mage? I don't want to spend too much time wearing my tin foil hat, but it does feel a bit like they're using really popular job imagery to sell something completely different that people might not otherwise be interested in. I know a lot of people who are excited about it just because it has the Red Mage name and the pimp hat - would they be so interested in the expansion if it was just another generic nuker in both name and execution?

Of course this could all be explained away in the name of innovation, but as I said in a SMN thread a while back, if your car has wings and flies it's not an innovative car - it's something else.

However, we had to fit it into the FFXIV formula. Otherwise, it might turn out as a job that isn’t too useful.

I mean, I suppose this could be true, but... it's just all a bit boring this way, you know? Do it right, or don't do it!

Questionably relevant but nonetheless excited babbling about support jobs.

Thing is, I'm very much in favour of support jobs as a general thing. Actual BRD job, stuff like Green Mage - it's all there waiting to be used! I agree that there are a lot of hurdles in the way of implementing a real support job in a heavily restrictive environment like XIV, but I firmly believe it's possible with a bit of creativity.

Pure support jobs are just DD jobs that deal damage by proxy. They just need someone there for them to support, at which point they're (pretty much by definition) perfectly capable of pulling their own weight. If they can't pull their own weight, then they've been designed incorrectly! I mean, an AST giving someone The Balance is responsible for the extra damage dealt - that's theirs, just by proxy. Is there any real reason why a job couldn't be entirely constructed around that concept?

The only difficulty I see for pure support jobs in XIV is the fact that we're expected to solo our main quest. I don't have a problem with that as a paradigm, but it does require some creative workarounds for support jobs - a buffable, but rather lacklustre pet is one good solution. It'd serve the same purpose as Cleric Stance when you're forced to be on your own, and if you made it mediocre enough that buffing real players is always a better option when they're around, it should be golden. Each job could have its own, different "workaround", I'm sure. It seems like 90% of the time we have NPCs with us anyway.

As for the Duty Finder issue, is there any reason why there couldn't be a ruling that only 0 to 1 of the DD jobs in any given matched party was a support job? Then you'd either have the standard composition we have now, or one support job amongst a set of traditional damage dealers. No need for a new party slot that way either, so no extended queue times, and as support jobs tend to be less popular in general than direct damage dealers, you're unlikely to have an overload of them in the queue.

Or you could even give each individual support job its own mechanics for dealing with a "support overload" scenario! Maybe buffing one another's pets, to continue with the previous example. Something nice and creative if possible.

I dunno, there's probably lots of holes in my reasoning, but I really don't feel it's fair to dismiss the idea of pure support jobs out of hand. I think it's much more fun to think about it and theorise!

[Jim_Berry]

BRD, MCH, and SCH would need to be classed as Support as well, then. But since our system only allow for Tank, Heal, DPS, please look forward to it.

*EDIT*
Or how about changing BRD's and MCH's Limit Break 3 to gives an increase to all attributes, HP Regen, MP, Regen, TP Regen, Skill Speed, Spell Speed, Attack Speed.

[Tint]

i would have liked to see Red Mage as a healer class, because healers are the only role wich can switch between offensive and healing magic. on top of that the sword for meele attacks to further establish him as damage / heal hybrid class wich could hopefully replace Scholar.