Please change Cleric Stance cooldown to on-deactivate

[Feyona]

I can understand the frustration, but this isn't a problem with Cleric Stance.
If someone's pressing buttons unintentionally, the solutions are better button layouts or more practice, not a recode of the ability being activated.

Yes bu there isnt such a high risk debilitating penalty with any other button being press at the wrong time ... Oh but those that never make mistakes like that its fine I guess

[Vulcwen]

I have another idea for how to deal with this issue on cleric stance:
Give it a 1.5s cast time (1s is too little to be able to cancel it).

I'd mean you can't really weave un-cleric, ogcd heal, cleric anymore, but that would be a reasonable trade-off. A cast time also provides a message that you're committing to something. This also gives a more clear difference in visuals between activating and deactivating cleric.

EDIT:
I'm also of the opinion that cleric stance shouldn't be a thing for all 3 healers, there should be some variation in how these trade-offs are dealt with between the healers to create a bit more identity.

[winsock]

The cooldown on activation is needed and should stay.

But if you want a CD on deactivation as well I don't really care.

[Tint]

The cooldown on activation is needed and should stay.

needed? for what?

i could agree with you if healer dps was really just a bonus: but with the laughable low heal requirements and the expectation that healers should dps in all the free time, why punish them with the cleric cooldown?
either they should let healers dps freely or do something that they actually have to heal. as long as stance dancing is the norm, i see no reason for the punishment wich the cleric cooldown is.

risk and reward is fine and all, but why should i do i have to do risks ALL THE TIME?

[Feidam]

I don't mind having to switch to cleric stance to dps but the cooldown is annoying and silly. I'm very much in favor of the. Removing cleric stance, adjust healer damage to work off of mind and balancing from there.

[VanilleFang]

So what I'm seeing is thus: Make healers even easier to play! Or am I missing something here?

Changing CS will remove something that separates good healers with great healers. The cooldown on activation has already been explained yet its point seems to be lost on people. "Why should I have to take a risk every time, when healing requirements are so low?" Because you are stepping outside your primary role so there has to be something you are losing or risking. It's like a tank who does a lower Enmity but higher DPS/support oriented combo, or a DPS who uses an ability that dies not directly effect their DPS (mantra etc.). They are stepping outside their "primary role" and are sacrificing the thing that helps them in that role more so than the thing they are doing. Damage still helps tanks hold enmity, supporting allies can increase the overall DPS of the party, anf killing things makes healing easier, but they are not the thing their role is "supposed" to focus on. And since healers don't have rotations that need to be strictly followed to maximize their main purpose, they instead have a form of risk they need to deal with and manage.

Does what I'm saying make sense? Why should a healer be allowed to freely jump between healing and DPS without some form of risk? I'm waiting for someone to give me an actual reason other than "it's unnecessary" because that's purely a matter of opinion and has no impact on game play itself.

And if we want to instead put the 5 sec cooldown on deactivation? Yeah, healing requirements are not generally high enough to lock us out of dpsing.

Also, we have abilities that can be used to help prolong CS (bene, regen, asylum, etc.)


As for the ridiculous idea that healers ahould use MND instead if INT, that is still floating around... So you just want redundancy in the stats? If they were to do this they should just fuse INT and MND because then INT would be useless, as it would effect far fewer spells than MND would. And while they're at it, why not fuse STR and DEX? Or STR and VIT? Or VIT and PIE? Why should I have to decide on what stats I need, if people can't even be bothered to learn to properly use their class?

And can someone explain to me how making MND an OP stat for healers would help with the gameplay?

[Tint]

So what I'm seeing is thus: Make healers even easier to play! Or am I missing something here?

nope, you are missing nothing. making it easier is the whole point of removing cleric and scaling from mind.

Changing CS will remove something that separates good healers with great healers.

again that's exactly the reason why they want to make the classes easier, like making enochian and blood of the dragon perma-buffs. removing cleric and scaling damage from mind fits in this changes. this change will not make bad players suddenly good, but the gap between the good and the great will be smaller.

The cooldown on activation has already been explained yet its point seems to be lost on people. "Why should I have to take a risk every time, when healing requirements are so low?" Because you are stepping outside your primary role so there has to be something you are losing or risking. It's like a tank who does a lower Enmity but higher DPS/support oriented combo, or a DPS who uses an ability that dies not directly effect their DPS (mantra etc.). They are stepping outside their "primary role" and are sacrificing the thing that helps them in that role more so than the thing they are doing. Damage still helps tanks hold enmity, supporting allies can increase the overall DPS of the party, anf killing things makes healing easier, but they are not the thing their role is "supposed" to focus on. And since healers don't have rotations that need to be strictly followed to maximize their main purpose, they instead have a form of risk they need to deal with and manage.

your example with the tank is bad, because a tank don't lose the ability to tank when he is not in tank stance, but a healer lose the ability to heal in cleric. if a tank loses ALL enmity skills AND his defensive cooldowns outside of tank stance, then the example would be correct. but that's not the case.

Does what I'm saying make sense? Why should a healer be allowed to freely jump between healing and DPS without some form of risk? I'm waiting for someone to give me an actual reason other than "it's unnecessary" because that's purely a matter of opinion and has no impact on game play itself.

of course it's a matter of opinion. my opinion: i have social anxiety and it REALLY bothers me when someone dies because of my fault, struggling with cleric again. at the same time i want to push the dps, because nobody should think i am "lazy" or something. at the same i don't like to dps at all. it's a chore i have to do while i play healer, but i really like healing.
making it easier to switch between dps and healing would really help me.

however, you don't give any reason other than "it's necessary" too, so your opinion is also just your opinion i guess...

for the gameplay aspect: weaving in dps skills far more often without that clunky cleric stance would indeed make playing healer much more fluent (and fun). the healer dps of the average player should go up, so they can design fights with healer dps in mind - they have failed to deliever a proper challange for healers anyway.

[VanilleFang]

I never claimed it was necessary. The point of the 5 second cooldown when you activate CS is to give healers an option to deal damage, at the risk of not being able to heal as well. The reason it is in place is because healers have to understand the fight properly to know when they should dps, and to help healers utilize their entire lot more efficiently. Without the 5 seconds on activation two separate problems could emergency.



1. If the 5 second cooldown is added on to deactivation healers would be FAR less flexable weaving in and out of CS with the current healing needs. For example: I will be spamming dps spell and I notice my regen has fallen off the tank. I drop CS, cast Regen, recast CS. Now if there was a 5 second cooldown I had to wait for AFTER regen? I would be locked into healing when it isn't needed effectively making me useless. Healers would have to plan when it's best to HEAL rather than plan when it is best NOT TO HEAL. It would be a massive tonal shift in the role itself, as healing would feel like the "secondary" function of the class. You would wait to drop CS for when you won't be locked into it without healing, rather than making sure everyone is healed so you can do something else

Or 2. If there is no cooldown at all then healing would lose some of its challenge and possibly become incredibly boring. CS would be FAR too forgiving, and it would be much harder for people to learn proper skill usages and balancing DPS and healing. Players would be able to more easily get away with being lazy and not paying attention to the fight.


The only reasons I see why people want it changed are personal reasons. I'm thinking of the role as a whole, not only about how I feel when I play.

As for my tank example? I explained it. Damage gives enmity, killing things makes healing easier. You risk losing hate if you improperly stop using your enmity combo. Healers do not lose the ability to heal in CS. There are options to heal even while in CS, so that's a complete exaggeration on your part.

They want the classes to be easier to learn and play, but they don't want to take away all challenge and skill. Healers are already ridiculously easy to play and learn, but they take skill and practice to master. Changing CS and MND would remove all skill involved in playing a healer, outside properly skill use.

[winsock]

needed? for what?

i could agree with you if healer dps was really just a bonus: but with the laughable low heal requirements and the expectation that healers should dps in all the free time, why punish them with the cleric cooldown?

You complain about "laughable" requirements, then argue that the job should be made easier?

[Tint]

If there is no cooldown at all then healing would lose some of its challenge and possibly become incredibly boring. CS would be FAR too forgiving, and it would be much harder for people to learn proper skill usages and balancing DPS and healing. Players would be able to more easily get away with being lazy and not paying attention to the fight.

yeah, maybe it will get more boring. but i would'nt say that healer dps is exciting the way it is now. cleric is clunky and the whole dps part is just pressing 1-2-3-3-3-3-3 repeat... and yes, making it more forgiving is the whole point. why should i even being punished for doing dps? the game forces me to do so with the low heal requirements and the community even more with their expectations. i can understand the punishment when healer dps really was just a bonus - but it has become the standard. and the other thing... i just can't follow you here. making it easier to throw dps skills between your heals makes it harder to balance dps and healing? what? people get away with "being lazy" when they fill every gcd with either healing or damage? really, i can't follow you here.

As for my tank example? I explained it. Damage gives enmity, killing things makes healing easier. You risk losing hate if you improperly stop using your enmity combo. Healers do not lose the ability to heal in CS. There are options to heal even while in CS, so that's a complete exaggeration on your part.

the point is you still can use your enmity combo while in damage stance. yo still can use your defensive cooldowns either. tank stance gets you some bonus enmity, some bonus mitigation and it lowers your damage output a bit.
but you can do damage in tank stance and you can tank without tank stance.
as a healer you can't do that. you can't heal in cleric, except for benediction and your fairy. so yeah, it's not completely impossible xD but however, you can use your HoTs before you enter cleric, sure, like you can establish high enmity before dropping tank stance. but what when someone gets hit suddenly? you simply can't heal them. what when an add spawns or the boss casts a tankbuster? you just grab the add and pop a cooldown.
you lose your ability to heal in cleric and the ability to deal damage out of cleric, while a tank never loses the ability to get enmity, mitigate damage or deal damage.

so are tanks lazy? because they don't have to pay attention to the fight, right?

You complain about "laughable" requirements, then argue that the job should be made easier?

exactly^^ laughable low heal requirements leading to much cleric uptime. but stance dancing is harder to achieve than straight healing, wich means the game is harder when the heal requirements are low. okay, someone could say low heal requirements are already easy, wich is somehow true, but nobody wants the healer staying around. that's not easy, that's playing the game wrong.
so, they can make it easier by increasing the heal requirements, wich would be my prefered way, but let's be honest - that will not happen. the other way is to make it easier to fill the downtime with dps by removing the whole stance dancing aspect.

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but what about an inbetween solution? the damage skills scale from mind, but cleric stance stays in place with it's increased damage and lowered healing effect, maybe new balanced. then the great healers still can stance dance and achieve much better reults, but the not so good healers can throw some dps skills wihtout worrying too much to let people die.