Do Something About Duty Finder Already

[Mavrias]

If your friend was leveling and the Hall of the Novice was available then he absolutely just did not read anything presented to him. The beginning of the msq leads you straight to the hall literally the quest before sastasha. You have to talk to them to progress.

Not to mention every 5 levels in arr (2 in heavensward) a big pop up appears on your screen telling you that a new class/job quest is available and recommends that you go do it asap. Plus the next class quest regardless of whether you can access it at the time is immediately visible on the map, normally from the same or a nearby npc.

And honestly I'd rather Square spend their resources on actual content rather than hand hold you throughout learning to play the game. People just need to read their tooltips and active help pop ups.

[IchiTheKiller]

I understand your feelings OP, I can relate. Not trying to be personal when I say this, but I think you can go... deeper. Why is SE making such a game in the first place? They go as the playerbase. Now, I have been banned from these forums once, and I might be banned again, but truth be told, Im not trying to be a troll. As is expressed in OPs post, and also in other posts I see here, it is actually... not the other way around. People need to be banned, because they violate. I want to say however, that the reason you have archers and gladiators in an end-game trial, being totally and absolutely clueless... sadly has to do with the game they create, for the... you guessed it, people.

Why do they create this kind of game? Well its because they cater to what people want... of course. So you end up with casuals running around with mage gear on their Dragoon... pushing the wrong buttons, doing something completely different than... gaming. You kinda see this outcome in the... blueprint, so to speak. Its kinda what this game is, "fashion fantasy as someone coined it. They make a game for casuals. Now, please, Im not trying to troll or be rude. Believe me, I am a fan. I support SE, and I love games. But what can I tell you, now they attract alot more people to these games than... gamers. Its kinda how they do it, catering to people to make money, but you cant really blame them, they run a business. I have hopes for the future however, and that things... blend out a little, so to speak. That they make a game more focused on... being a game, and so, molding it different. And thus hopefully we will see less trolls, and have a better experience. Im not trying to be harsh, but you only always hear the other opinion voiced always, and I think this side of the coin also needs to see the light of day. Peace

[Claviusnex]

I was in an Expert Duty roulette yesterday, the tank who was well equipped and likely a decent tank most of the time decided to pull everything up to the first door without mentioning it to anyone else. The healer was new to the dungeon and couldn't keep up with the tank's heals nor the DPS who pulled aggro due to the oversized mob. We ended up wiping. When it was mentioned to slow down the tank proceeded to, you guessed it, pull everything up to the door resulting in a second wipe. I said thanks, good luck and left the party. To me that just goes along with the game and isn't worth getting upset about. Yes I had to kill 30 minutes during the lockout but again that is no big deal. Personally if these types of things are going to upset you so you don't get enjoyment out of the game you should maybe consider doing something else.

[Fyrebrand]

To some extent, there will always be "ice mages," DRKs who think they are DPS, and healers who do nothing but spam basic damage spells while not even in cleric stance. But I agree with OP, that this is not an excuse to shrug our shoulders and pretend the game can't do any better. I do think FFXIV does a fantastic job at training players gradually -- in fact, the idea of there even being "job quests" at all seems to be fading from the MMO genre. But on the other hand, players can apparently completely ignore these job quests and still advance through content. This should not be happening. There's no reason anybody should be able to claim ignorance of such things, intentional or otherwise.

I have to wonder, though, how much of a role does the community play in this? Think about the average "Leveling Roulette" run, and what it must be like for a new/learning player. They enter. The tank may or may not charge ahead in the very first second, not even waiting for Protect. Giant pulls, no time to process what's going on. 3/4ths of the party are all level 60 veterans who steamroll everything and don't bother with many boss mechanics. The newbie probably is, essentially, being carried through the whole thing, their actions of little consequence. Hardly anybody says anything the entire time. If they look to the forums for guidance, they see topic after topic about how it's is the healer's job to DPS, and how Protect is meaningless while leveling. They see topics asking for clarification on how much enmity tank skills actually generate, and being told "don't worry about it, you can tell by damage, GLD sucks at low levels anyways." These are experienced players who treat low-level content like a joke -- because, to us, it kind of is. But to a newbie who is struggling to pick up on the basics, it is frustrating and confusing, and portrays the image that there is actually nothing to learn.

So, uh... bring on that Level-Boost Potion, huh?

[DaikiKiyoshi]

big snip

Makes sense. I must agree with you on all points.

[Kaethra]

Some kind of feedback system would be nice to let players know that they're not doing what they should be, but I'm not sure how they could implement something like that properly.

You don't. Well you can. But apparently its against the rules (I'm not too sure honestly) to use parsers.

But devs cannot do anything. And I'll say it right here.. devs likely don't know how to play the game as well as we do. They have a basic idea of how to play. But they've already shown how to do that in the class/job quests (speaking to the OP's suggestions are already in game).

The issues the OP brings up are quite rare. I've actually not seen 30+ classes in job content. Except for one time. Just once. And they ended up DCing during the second pull. As for people not playing their jobs properly, 9 times out of 10 the offending player knows how. But chooses not to. SE already fixed the issue by giving us vote kick.

The issue is like Mavrias said earlier, we need LESS hand holding. When I played EQ there wasn't easy to read tool tips. The formula for mitigation by Armor Class was:



(that was only figured out within the last 2 years with dev aid)

And even lower end players knew their limitations. The issue with hand holding is players get a false sense of security and think they can do anything. They need to be allowed to fail and fall on their faces. They won't know their limitations otherwise.

[Shougun]

You don't. Well you can. But apparently its against the rules (I'm not too sure honestly) to use parsers.

They have a stance on it that is pretty much a looser dont ask to dont tell policy. You could for example go put a youtube video up detailing where and how to use a parser, and then go use it in game, with your name and server brazenly visible - and nothing will happen. Include something else like harassment though and you'll be in trouble. In game you can even be found saying you use a parser (at least /one/ case with someone I talked to who was reported for it) and they'll just lightly tap your wrist and say bad dog and give you a bad doggie treat. Parsing itself is not really the crime here and will mostly lead to finger waiving (from reading reddit and other spaces on how things have gone); however, you start to use the parser to be a determent to other people's experience through griefing and harassment and you'll face more significant issues. I wouldn't go test the in game parser thing, GM to GM would vary how they respond to the same exact issue but many big timers have their names behind or suggest using parsers without issue (including major raid groups). Yoshida is aware people use them, has watched raid clears that have the parser open on screen, and said they will not hunt those people down.

The issue is not the parser, the issue is what people do with it. Which is why my stance on parsers has been generally pro getting them into the game legitimately (even if its personal/mutliplayer details delay released and made anon): "we already suffer, and all the bad things people don't like about parsers would still be banned anyways if we allowed them, like harassment". Of course there is one final significant issue on the topic and that is SE doesn't have a first party parser, so you must use third party tools, and SE would have to be incredibly delicate, and specific with the detail on what a parser is in their EULA / ToS and even then it is iffy.. so their ToS / EULA is much easier to manage if they just say all third party tools are banned regardless of what it does.

So, imo, the point SE allows parsers is when they make addons to FFXIV and while I'd be okay if they ran a Apple like application process for addons to prevent DBM, I really want to see the QoL from addons - so I push for parser because I see it as the path to addons.

And even lower end players knew their limitations. The issue with hand holding is players get a false sense of security and think they can do anything. They need to be allowed to fail and fall on their faces. They won't know their limitations otherwise.

I would just add, because I'm not sure what you consider hand holding exactly, that giving players tools to learn their job in a safe environment (proving grounds, relevant tutorial fight, better tuned job quests, appropriately difficult content that ensures proper play is learned) is the right kind of hand holding, and should be done. Even Dark Souls is built to hand hold (to an extent), more like spiritually hand push you - the order of enemies, traps, items you obtain in the beginning are all there to teach you the basics without saying "HI I AM TUTORIAL PRESS X PLEASE". They plan when you're meant to fall on your face, and I agree falling is part of learning, but I just want to make sure this isnt a "we don't need any information, just pour the pain onto us, it'll be fine" - because for a lot of people it wont be lol.

I personally dislike poorly designed tutorials or obnoxiously long ones but cleverly designed tutorials is never a sin, and since the Souls is one of my favorites and stereotypically known to be difficult I like to reference it as they absolutely did a tutorial but a lot of the tutorial was on how they unfolded the game to you. To add to this last bit SE doesn't get the luxury of making a beautifully paced unfolding game, they're an MMORPG and people who join now or even more so a few years from now will want to be joining for the content they just got interested in. People don't go buy FFXIV (most at least) because they want to go fight Nael Van Darnus, they go buy it because OMG DID YOU SEE RED MAGE? DID YOU SEE WHAT LEGION HAS? Furthermore the few who get drawn in from all the hubhub but didnt buy the expansions will quickly be drawn that direction because A. SE wants the money and B. most of the community will either be there or be heading there. So, making Halls and ensuring people don't get lost in the torrent of information that players and SE will both want them to ride.. I strongly believe is the right kind of hand holding but if you're major gripe against hand holding is "the content doesn't teach you bcause it's face rolled" then I would agree, even if SE wants them to ride the torrent there should still be specific opportunities of falling, scrapping your knees, and being able to get back up. All of that will take clever design, or feel really clunky though.

What I wish was they went back to their job quests and made them require you to use the spell they're going to let you use outside of that quest (like an introduction quest), or help you learn to use the previous one. There are specific job quests that do actually have an element of "if you didn't turn this on, you're probably not going to win" but most are pretty face roll easy and don't actually teach you the new mechanics (I've been able to approach nearly all the ones so far in a "whatever I want" way). For example there are a few that I thought were not "easy" but at the same time didn't teach me a single new thing about my job, which I felt was a significantly lost opportunity.

Hope to see the Halls continue to be made (even into expert, savage) and be something that is both fun and educational, as well specific tests could be convenient way to help the DF. Maybe you can't queue for savage content without either unsync or by completing a specific set of Hall tests, nothing impossible but if you can't finish them then it means you're most likely going to be a detriment to your party in DF. Story mode content being a lot more lenient of course, I know some people just want to be along for the ride and that's it - doesn't really bother me, but something like the test would help divide out people who are unwilling to try harder (which is not a sin, this doesn't make them bad people) and it will separate them out in a way that reduced community interaction (you don't yell at them and then vote kick, they just don't play with you lol).

It also might be helpful to work on a flex system like WoW has and aim for three modes, or more, as well so that you get easy, normal to moderately hard, then epic hard, and that few pieces of face melt self torture. Which would help give everyone something to do even when divided out a bit, and help be a cost effective way to do it too (design a few extra mechanics, trash changes, mini bosses, and other changes that are more interesting that just a simple HP/Damage buff as the difficulty ramps up, maybe introduce optional areas and separate paths as well for the harder contents).

[Zhamkyong]

3/4ths of the party are all level 60 veterans who steamroll everything and don't bother with many boss mechanics. The newbie probably is, essentially, being carried through the whole thing, their actions of little consequence. Hardly anybody says anything the entire time.

I agree with you in all points, but i think that one is one of the most important to point out. Jump level potions wouldnt be an issue if they had to face the same challenge as everyone... A challenge we dont have due to the massive ILevel and the mess that is the whole system.

[Vorx]

So i know you all stone anyone who considers playing Classes but i have a question for all of you:
Say i ready a DF as my Rogue, everything starts we're going good, my straight shot+ Internal Release combo allows me to put out the same amount of damage then if i was a Ninja since i have two critical hit power ups making almost ever attack is a critical, is that still bad?

I seriously want to know because it seems the ones playing the classes and finding these little tricks seem to know they're characters more then those "experts" playing as Jobs.

[Zhamkyong]

snip

I will let a ninja main answer that because I don't know about the specifications of the job, but generally speaking a soul crystal gives you not only the ability of that job, also a boost in the stats(can't recall now the amount). Anyway, by not getting it equipped you will lose abilities from the class 30-60. Cross class skills don't make up to them. If you are soloing play what you will, with players, please, don't do that.