Stop Making Should-Be Achievement Gear.."Optional Gear"

[KokonoeAiyoko]

May I ask why? You mention that content "should" be earned in-game, and that we are paying for a "FULL membership," but what are those points based on? Because Square Enix doesn't need to make more money? I mean, granted, but so what? By what argument "should" all this be free? You act like that's an inherent truth, but that's not the case.

Now, I think your point about customer satisfaction is strong, and important. If they charge too much and it drives people away, that's bad, both from a business and a customer perspective. However, that doesn't seem to be happening, at least not yet. But I don't think it's wise to conflate "I don't like that I have to pay for this" with "I shouldn't have to pay for this." The first is a valid argument, even though everyone seems to be afraid to just say that. The second is kind of nonsense.

I think what they're wanting to say is that part of the appeal of Pay to Play MMO's for so many years was that you only payed once a month and had the chance to obtain everything the game had to offer without a cash shop. It really made the game as a whole feel much better and more cost effective compared to F2P variants.

This game I feel has kind of over done the glamour aspect of cash shops as well as emotes. In FFXI and FFXIV 1.0, you could always reobtain event gear the following year in-game, but now you have to pay money if you missed out that one year which is already a downgrade compared to the past. Even FFXIV 2.0 was like this at first but they changed it and started charging us for old gear that was made for basic events.

SE charging 30$ for a mount and 7$ per emote is hella pricey with their other costs being high as well. 15$ gets you an outfit and a hairstyle, but is that really the price of something that cost more than a single 12.99$ sub? All in all, they definitely deserve criticism with how they've been implementing this cash shop from price alone and charging us for old event items with steep prices in comparison to the sub. You don't even get to have these items on all of your characters which is even more steep.

[Talraen]

I think what they're wanting to say is that part of the appeal of Pay to Play MMO's for so many years was that you only payed once a month and had the chance to obtain everything the game had to offer without a cash shop. It really made the game as a whole feel much better and more cost effective compared to F2P variants.

This game I feel has kind of over done the glamour aspect of cash shops as well as emotes. In FFXI and FFXIV 1.0, you could always reobtain event gear the following year in-game, but now you have to pay money if you missed out that one year which is already a downgrade compared to the past. Even FFXIV 2.0 was like this at first but they changed it and started charging us for old gear that was made for basic events.

SE charging 30$ for a mount and 7$ per emote is hella pricey with their other costs being high as well. 15$ gets you an outfit and a hairstyle, but is that really the price of something that cost more than a single 12.99$ sub? All in all, they definitely deserve criticism with how they've been implementing this cash shop from price alone and charging us for old event items with steep prices in comparison to the sub. You don't even get to have these items on all of your characters which is even more steep.

Granted, this isn't the way things used to be, but that doesn't make it inherently wrong. Square Enix is offering goods and services, and it's your choice whether to buy them or not. I just think "we didn't used to have to pay for this" is a weak argument. If enough people say "we won't pay for this and will stop paying for your game at all" that it seems like they're actually coming out behind by offering these items at these prices, that should convince them. But it's not a debate that can be won on principle, because the principles are entirely arbitrary.

[Ryel]

Granted, this isn't the way things used to be, but that doesn't make it inherently wrong. Square Enix is offering goods and services, and it's your choice whether to buy them or not. I just think "we didn't used to have to pay for this" is a weak argument.

Actually it's a perfectly valid argument.

If a company is charging a recurring fee for a service and then selectively starts removing features of that service specifically with the intent to add an additional charge to them then yes it's well within a consumer's rights to say "Hold on, something is wrong here."

In regards to seasonal event items this is something that is a rather large issue, whatever arguments you want to make for unique mounts, emotes, glamour items and recolors that are placed in the Mogstation are entirely different as you can make the case that while those items were developed for the game they were never actually implemented in the live version, meaning there never was an alternate way to obtain them.

In the case of seasonal event items however they are items that players with active subscriptions were able to acquire during their initial release and prior to the Mogstation were available annually upon the return of the event for those who may have missed them the first time. Now the case is that the only way to obtain those items if you were unsubbed or not playing at the time of the event is to pay a cash amount that may very well be equal or greater than your monthly subscription in addition to the amount you have to pay to play the game to begin with.

So yeah suddenly being charged for something you didn't used to before on top of a recurring service fee is a pretty big deal.

If enough people say "we won't pay for this and will stop paying for your game at all" that it seems like they're actually coming out behind by offering these items at these prices, that should convince them. But it's not a debate that can be won on principle, because the principles are entirely arbitrary.

The problem is that this is a black and white approach to a multifaceted issue.

Players who never experienced the event but want the items literally have no other alternatives if they want to acquire those seasonal rewards.

It would be one thing if the mog station sold previous seasonal items year round but the game allowed you to acquire the same items via in-game means for free during the following annual event, something that would actually be a fair compromise. You would see plenty of players willing to wait out the next year's event if it meant they had a shot at getting the items without having to buy them, while those who are less patient or simply dont mind spending the cash would have the freedom to buy them off the Mogstation ASAP.

The reality however is that the Mogstation is an all or nothing approach, either you got the item from the year's event or your only alternative is to buy it with cash for the rest of the lifetime of the game.

This also discounts that the majority of people are playing the game for reasons outside of the Mogstation.

I'm personally not going to drop my sub because the Mogstation is selling a Red Magitek mount or an various NPC glamours, I certainly wont buy them sure but my continued sub to the game doesn't mean that I personally approve of every single Mogstation addition. Just like people buying many of these items doesnt mean they agree with them being put up for sale to begin with. All it does show is that they have a desire to acquire those items, many of which have no alternate means of acquisition.

[Talraen]

In regards to seasonal event items this is something that is a rather large issue, whatever arguments you want to make for unique mounts, emotes, glamour items and recolors that are placed in the Mogstation are entirely different as you can make the case that while those items were developed for the game they were never actually implemented in the live version, meaning there never was an alternative way to obtain them.

In the case of seasonal event items however they are items that players with active subscriptions were able to acquire during their initial release and prior to the Mogstation were available annually upon the return of the event for those who may have missed them the first time. Now the case is that the only way to obtain those items if you were unsubbed or not playing at the time of the event is to pay a cash amount that may very well be equal or greater than your monthly subscription in addition to the amount you have to pay to play the game to begin with.

So yeah suddenly being charged for something you didn't used to before on top of a recurring service fee is a pretty big deal.

So if a company ever offers something for free, it can never decide to charge for it? How about raising prices? Is that allowed, or is it a problem because we're paying more than we used to before?

And I'm sorry if having "literally no other alternatives" doesn't convince me. The "compromise" you suggest would completely cut the legs off of whatever revenue stream Square Enix is trying to create. One of the main reasons for charging for old event items is to incentivize players to stay subscribed. Your proposal would remove both that incentive and the incentive to buy older items, effectively making the whole thing moot.

I understand that this system costs players money and the previous system did not. I too would prefer if everything was free. Who wouldn't? But you're taking a stand on principle when the debate is purely economic. Your argument boils down to "I don't want to pay for this" - which, again, is an economic argument. So make that argument.

If you're not going to unsubscribe if they offer optional items you won't pay for, then what exactly is your angle here? If the items are optional, and you won't buy them, so what?

[Ryel]

So if a company ever offers something for free, it can never decide to charge for it? How about raising prices? Is that allowed, or is it a problem because we're paying more than we used to before?

You're misrepresenting the point.

If a company goes "This is our service and this is what is included in our service charge" and then starts taking items out of that package for no reason than to charge separately for them you can be sure there will be consumer blowback.

In fact its the exact reason that when cable, internet, and phone providers update their packages for new subscribers they dont go back and ninja the customers on existing plans, they keep them as they were for previous subscribers, because thats what they signed up for (also contracts but y'know).

So can they decide to charge for it? Sure, they can.

Most companies however deem the practice unethical (lol they don't want to deal with the blowback) so they don't do it and consumers have the right to voice an opinion if they disagree with the service.

And I'm sorry if having "literally no other alternatives" doesn't convince me. The "compromise" you suggest would completely cut the legs off of whatever revenue stream Square Enix is trying to create. One of the main reasons for charging for old event items is to incentivize players to stay subscribed. Your proposal would remove both that incentive and the incentive to buy older items, effectively making the whole thing moot.

Except that it costs them nothing on the development end to re-issue annual event items, I'm not talking about events that were deemed exclusive like the "Lightning Returns", Dragon Quest, or Yokai Watch crossovers.

Allowing players to re-obtain seasonal event items in-game was something this game allowed before the Mogstation, it was a feature of the game one could count under what their subscription covered. Then when the next year came around suddenly the vendors no longer provided those items and you could "look forward" to them being charged for an additional fee on the Mogstation.

I understand that this system costs players money and the previous system did not. I too would prefer if everything was free. Who wouldn't? But you're taking a stand on principle when the debate is purely economic. Your argument boils down to "I don't want to pay for this" - which, again, is an economic argument. So make that argument.

If you're not going to unsubscribe if they offer optional items you won't pay for, then what exactly is your angle here? If the items are optional, and you won't buy them, so what?

You're once again misrepresenting the point, either that or you simply don't understand it (which is okay).

The argument isn't "I dont want to pay for this!"

The argument is "Why am I suddenly paying an additional fee for something I didn't have to before?"

Am i required to buy items off of the Mogstation? of course not, hence why i don't.

But if I'm paying a monthly fee for something and over time have been led to expect certain things where included under the umbrella of that monthly fee, as a consumer it is within my right to disagree or voice an opinionm if the company wants to remove some of those items and charge me additionally for them instead.

You're saying "well speak with your wallet" but i dont play the game for the items on the mogstation so outside of not buying them already (which i dont) unsubbing wont really say anything.

[Kuroneko_Jutah]

Except that it costs them nothing on the development end to re-issue annual event items,

How do you know this? Are you on the FFXIV development team?

[Ryel]

How do you know this? Are you on the FFXIV development team?

Nope, don't need to be.

The assets were already created and budgeted or they wouldn't have been in the previous year's event, they already exist. The code, the ID strings, the NPC dialogue are all there. Unless you're going to say that the entire game is continuously operating at a loss to the point that creating and reissuing event items is what's keeping them in the black?

Not likely or we would have seen a massive merging of servers as i can assure you those are costing the developers far more money than a broomstick mount.

I also know this because had you paid attention to the post in full you would realize that the practice of reissuing event items is one they used to do, interestingly enough it's also a practice almost every single subscription based MMO on the market continues to do.

So unless SE is doing something massively wrong... then no. It costs them nothing to re-issue annual event items.

[Talraen]

If a company goes "This is our service and this is what is included in our service charge" and then starts taking items out of that package for no reason than to charge separately for them you can be sure there will be consumer blowback.

Can you show me where Square Enix ever said that? They used to give people a second chance at seasonal items, now they don't. There was no formal policy in place for the former, nor the latter. What basis do you have for assuming they would remain free forever?

In fact its the exact reason that when cable, internet, and phone providers update their packages for new subscribers they dont go back and ninja the customers on existing plans, they keep them as they were for previous subscribers, because thats what they signed up for (also contracts but y'know).

Contracts are kind of important in this case, since they are literally the reason this happens at all.

So can they decide to charge for it? Sure, they can.

Most companies however deem the practice unethical (lol they don't want to deal with the blowback) so they don't do it and consumers have the right to voice an opinion if they disagree with the service.

No company considers charging for something unethical. Because if they did, they would go out of business pretty quickly. Companies split off products that were previously included in a package, or stop giving things away for free, all the time.

Allowing players to re-obtain seasonal event items in-game was something this game allowed before the Mogstation, it was a feature of the game one could count under what their subscription covered. Then when the next year came around suddenly the vendors no longer provided those items and you could "look forward" to them being charged for an additional fee on the Mogstation.

If you counted on that to be part of your subscription, that's on you. That was never promised. And they gave subscribers a chance to get every item from 1.0 before they started charging for anything.

The argument is "Why am I suddenly paying an additional fee for something I didn't have to before?"

That's not an argument, that's misunderstanding how business works. And besides, you're not paying an additional fee, since you indicated you don't buy the cash shop items. What they have done is stop offering something they used to offer for free. Much like they stopped offering the original version of Diadem, or the entirety of 1.0 (which free for some time before they started charging for it, I might add). It's their game, they can do that, and every user should expect it. One day they'll shut down the servers and everything you ever earned or even paid for will be gone.

[Ryel]

Can you show me where Square Enix ever said that? They used to give people a second chance at seasonal items, now they don't. There was no formal policy in place for the former, nor the latter. What basis do you have for assuming they would remain free forever?

If you counted on that to be part of your subscription, that's on you. That was never promised. And they gave subscribers a chance to get every item from 1.0 before they started charging for anything

If you're asking for a clause in the ToS or the EULA then no you won't find one.

But generally the practice you're asking about falls under consumer-business goodwill. That the expectation, quality, and cost of services rendered wont suddenly change.

It's the same reason players don't expect them to suddenly start charging for any other number of game interactions that we currently have access to even though they technically could, according to the ToS and EULA nothing really stops them, they have the option should they wish. However we dont expect them to start charging for raids resets (some free to play games actually do charge for this) or various other game features, because we pay a recurring subscription. It's one of the draws of the game itself.

Its part of the subscription based MMO model.

No company considers charging for something unethical. Because if they did, they would go out of business pretty quickly. Companies split off products that were previously included in a package, or stop giving things away for free, all the time.

And it doesn't always work, you know why?

Because people speak up about it or take their business elsewhere.

If everyone just shrugged their shoulders anytime it happened it would be far more commonplace. Its why we give feedback, surely such a concept isn't that foreign is it?

That's not an argument, that's misunderstanding how business works. And besides, you're not paying an additional fee, since you indicated you don't buy the cash shop items. What they have done is stop offering something they used to offer for free. Much like they stopped offering the original version of Diadem, or the entirety of 1.0 (which free for some time before they started charging for it, I might add). It's their game, they can do that, and every user should expect it. One day they'll shut down the servers and everything you ever earned or even paid for will be gone.

In all honesty it doesn't affect me, I have the items, I was there for the events.

But judging by the thread it effects other people, and as a consumer I can speak up for and agree with them as well.

When I used the quote for the statement of the argument I don't mean myself personally, but it is an illustration of what the situation actually is. And it's not about whether or not you take something with you when the servers shut down or what content is no longer in the game but the user experience and consumer/business interaction.

SE as a company wont know what is and isn't okay if people don't give feedback on the matter, which is... exactly what I'm doing. I'm not sure how you haven't picked up this point across 3 posts, it hasn't exactly been subtle.

But if you wish to sit there and say "Well it's fine the way it is!" then by all means continue to do so, that's your right as a consumer, just as it's mine to disagree with the practice.