Stop Making Should-Be Achievement Gear.."Optional Gear"

[Talraen]

I think what they're wanting to say is that part of the appeal of Pay to Play MMO's for so many years was that you only payed once a month and had the chance to obtain everything the game had to offer without a cash shop. It really made the game as a whole feel much better and more cost effective compared to F2P variants.

This game I feel has kind of over done the glamour aspect of cash shops as well as emotes. In FFXI and FFXIV 1.0, you could always reobtain event gear the following year in-game, but now you have to pay money if you missed out that one year which is already a downgrade compared to the past. Even FFXIV 2.0 was like this at first but they changed it and started charging us for old gear that was made for basic events.

SE charging 30$ for a mount and 7$ per emote is hella pricey with their other costs being high as well. 15$ gets you an outfit and a hairstyle, but is that really the price of something that cost more than a single 12.99$ sub? All in all, they definitely deserve criticism with how they've been implementing this cash shop from price alone and charging us for old event items with steep prices in comparison to the sub. You don't even get to have these items on all of your characters which is even more steep.

Granted, this isn't the way things used to be, but that doesn't make it inherently wrong. Square Enix is offering goods and services, and it's your choice whether to buy them or not. I just think "we didn't used to have to pay for this" is a weak argument. If enough people say "we won't pay for this and will stop paying for your game at all" that it seems like they're actually coming out behind by offering these items at these prices, that should convince them. But it's not a debate that can be won on principle, because the principles are entirely arbitrary.

[Ryel]

Granted, this isn't the way things used to be, but that doesn't make it inherently wrong. Square Enix is offering goods and services, and it's your choice whether to buy them or not. I just think "we didn't used to have to pay for this" is a weak argument.

Actually it's a perfectly valid argument.

If a company is charging a recurring fee for a service and then selectively starts removing features of that service specifically with the intent to add an additional charge to them then yes it's well within a consumer's rights to say "Hold on, something is wrong here."

In regards to seasonal event items this is something that is a rather large issue, whatever arguments you want to make for unique mounts, emotes, glamour items and recolors that are placed in the Mogstation are entirely different as you can make the case that while those items were developed for the game they were never actually implemented in the live version, meaning there never was an alternate way to obtain them.

In the case of seasonal event items however they are items that players with active subscriptions were able to acquire during their initial release and prior to the Mogstation were available annually upon the return of the event for those who may have missed them the first time. Now the case is that the only way to obtain those items if you were unsubbed or not playing at the time of the event is to pay a cash amount that may very well be equal or greater than your monthly subscription in addition to the amount you have to pay to play the game to begin with.

So yeah suddenly being charged for something you didn't used to before on top of a recurring service fee is a pretty big deal.

If enough people say "we won't pay for this and will stop paying for your game at all" that it seems like they're actually coming out behind by offering these items at these prices, that should convince them. But it's not a debate that can be won on principle, because the principles are entirely arbitrary.

The problem is that this is a black and white approach to a multifaceted issue.

Players who never experienced the event but want the items literally have no other alternatives if they want to acquire those seasonal rewards.

It would be one thing if the mog station sold previous seasonal items year round but the game allowed you to acquire the same items via in-game means for free during the following annual event, something that would actually be a fair compromise. You would see plenty of players willing to wait out the next year's event if it meant they had a shot at getting the items without having to buy them, while those who are less patient or simply dont mind spending the cash would have the freedom to buy them off the Mogstation ASAP.

The reality however is that the Mogstation is an all or nothing approach, either you got the item from the year's event or your only alternative is to buy it with cash for the rest of the lifetime of the game.

This also discounts that the majority of people are playing the game for reasons outside of the Mogstation.

I'm personally not going to drop my sub because the Mogstation is selling a Red Magitek mount or an various NPC glamours, I certainly wont buy them sure but my continued sub to the game doesn't mean that I personally approve of every single Mogstation addition. Just like people buying many of these items doesnt mean they agree with them being put up for sale to begin with. All it does show is that they have a desire to acquire those items, many of which have no alternate means of acquisition.

[Talraen]

In regards to seasonal event items this is something that is a rather large issue, whatever arguments you want to make for unique mounts, emotes, glamour items and recolors that are placed in the Mogstation are entirely different as you can make the case that while those items were developed for the game they were never actually implemented in the live version, meaning there never was an alternative way to obtain them.

In the case of seasonal event items however they are items that players with active subscriptions were able to acquire during their initial release and prior to the Mogstation were available annually upon the return of the event for those who may have missed them the first time. Now the case is that the only way to obtain those items if you were unsubbed or not playing at the time of the event is to pay a cash amount that may very well be equal or greater than your monthly subscription in addition to the amount you have to pay to play the game to begin with.

So yeah suddenly being charged for something you didn't used to before on top of a recurring service fee is a pretty big deal.

So if a company ever offers something for free, it can never decide to charge for it? How about raising prices? Is that allowed, or is it a problem because we're paying more than we used to before?

And I'm sorry if having "literally no other alternatives" doesn't convince me. The "compromise" you suggest would completely cut the legs off of whatever revenue stream Square Enix is trying to create. One of the main reasons for charging for old event items is to incentivize players to stay subscribed. Your proposal would remove both that incentive and the incentive to buy older items, effectively making the whole thing moot.

I understand that this system costs players money and the previous system did not. I too would prefer if everything was free. Who wouldn't? But you're taking a stand on principle when the debate is purely economic. Your argument boils down to "I don't want to pay for this" - which, again, is an economic argument. So make that argument.

If you're not going to unsubscribe if they offer optional items you won't pay for, then what exactly is your angle here? If the items are optional, and you won't buy them, so what?

[Paladinleeds]

Sure, we can take out the cash shop, but your sub fee goes up to $100 a month. Would you STILL keep playing if the sub fee was $100 a month? I know I wouldn't. At least with optional items I can dip in when I have a bit of extra change to spare for my gaming, but if it was $100 a month sub fee I couldn't justify that. £8.99 a month is very reasonable plus a cash shop allowing me to dip into items. If they charged for access to dungeons or savage raids, etc, sure, I'd be OK with that, I buy access to the dungeons I want. No big deal. To me the £8.99 a month covers server access only. Anything else given by it is a bonus.

[Zojha]

Sure, we can take out the cash shop, but your sub fee goes up to $100 a month.

Even with 2% inflation over the last 50 years, with a base subscription of 15 dollar you'd end up at 38 dollar.
If we go for more realistic 10 years (because MMOs weren't a thing 50 years ago), the base subscription would go from 15 to 18 dollar.

Meanwhile, the technological progress constantly reduces the price per performance unit, whether that's storage, connection or processing speed.

You aren't paying for the product there, you're paying for the executives new cars.

[ErryK]

But where does it stop? Shall they stop making all sorts of weapon models all together? and just upgrade the same piece of item forever? And if you want anything else...pay for it? We are paying a sub already..part of that sub is the expectation that we will get digital items..systems such as the Veteran items is fine, since it rewards people who play...The Sub also covers items that users can use in the game....The game should be fun, challenging and since it is an MMO...should have alot more content for people to go do...Things to strive for...otherwise what is the point of playing at all? Then have them remove all mounts from EX fights...All emotes from the game..I can afford to buy these items...But my point is why pay a sub and bother having achievements if all the good stuff is bought? why do anything in the game? Raiding is OPTIONAL isnt it? so is LEVELING...so is gearing up...you don't make a strong point at all.

Well let's dissect this post, shall we?

1. We don't pay for weapons with stats, because that would be against the point of a sub MMO, that would be F2P wherein Yoshida has already stated he would close the game before it got to that point.
2. We don't pay for gear with stats, because that would be against the point of a sub MMO, that would be F2P wherein Yoshida has already stated he would close the game before it got to that point.
3. You pay a sub and you do get items? Actually, the sub is more of a pass to pay the game for that month, really. You could pay $15, and not get anything out of it if you really wanted.
4. If you can afford to buy all the emotes and mounts in the game, why are you then complaining about a $24 mount or $15 hair/outfit bundle if you can afford all the emotes and mounts which would amount to a total of 120 emotes, and 80 mounts, which totals to $840 for emotes and $960 for mounts, for a grand total of $1,800. You'd be absolutely okay with paying $1,800 instead of paying less than that over a course of 4~ years?
5. So all the good stuff is not in the achievements? Let me remind you, we don't have GC Warsteeds on the Mog Station, we don't have the ADS mounts on the Mog Station, we don't have the Yokai mounts on the Mog Station, we don't have the GARO mounts on the Mog Station, we don't have the tank mounts on the Mog Station. There's a lot of stuff ALREADY rewarded from achievements that is apparently, as you put it, "not the good stuff"...
6. Raiding is optional, but the gear has weight to it, as opposed to Lv1 glamour gear...
7. Leveling is optional... if you want to be forever stuck at whatever level you're at.

You don't make a strong counterpoint at all... strawmen are only good if they actually make a point. Your point is that because VANITY items are available on the Mog Station at a premium, that things with WEIGHT to them, that are a core part of an MMORPG's system, should be on the Mog Station for a premium, as if they were a vanity item.

Sorry... what was the argument again? That pretty bow for my hair is on the Mog Station, so the entire game should be?

That's .001% too much imo

The one thing that I've ever wanted would cost me 30$, more expensive than the game and more expensive than a full game on Steam.

RRP for AAA games is $60 for home console or PC, $40 for handhelds. Indie games are an entire different category to AAA games, let alone an AAA MMORPG.

[Reaperking386]

Every time you buy something from the cash shop a baby moogle dies.

I do not know about you OP, but I am happy to have gotten that new knight armor. I have been waiting so long for it and I thank the Dev team for atleast giving me a chance to get it. When it becomes pay to win then I will join you on our endless rants, but until that time..

[Alleo]

I agree with you OP and I am always kind of amazed how people still defend SE in this way. I am kinda waiting for the day when they will push the line too much and will lose lots of people over it. I like this game or I would not be playing it but I also find my interest fading over this past months since I kinda got the feelings that they see us more and more as nothing than cash cows that can be milked without any consequences. (And sadly I have a ingame friend that is really a big FF fan..he even purchased every merchandise for FF14 and yet even he gets tired about it..)

Its not only that we get more and more stuff into the cash shop..no its even getting more and more expensive..and this happens in sub MMO. On top of that with SE being a big company and us having no way to know how the money is used is not making this better. (Lets be truthful..someone standing there and saying that its used to upgrade the servers or get the EU servers...first we dont even know if that is true, they could tell us anything and as long as we dont have the numbers ourself and see how they distribute their budget we wont know for 100% if that is the truth and I am sorry but I cant just accept anything they say as a fact after having them going back about timers for housing and other stuff..also lets not forget how that might be even a bad sign for the game itself. If they can only upgrade servers which is probably necessary for MMO that wants to run for a long time, by selling exclusive stuff..well doesnt that mean that the game itself is not running well?)

I also dont really know what do think about glamour being so pricey to make for them..I mean if its only possible to create Kryles outfit for the whole races (I mean this is a outfit that already exists ingame) and sell it in the cash shop if lots of people buy it (and that at the prices that they have right now for clothes..)..what exactly are they doing? I played an MMO before where you only needed to pay for the game itself but not a sub..yet a complete and detailed costume set with a weapon only did cost around 30€ there but you could also only purchase parts of the costume for less money. Yet this was a game that needed the cash shop to survive..if creating a costume really costs that much, how are games like that even surviving?

[Atlas-04]

There is already quite a number of achievement exclusive gear/items and some of the best stuff is from in game. I personally don't care about copying a story characters outfit so I have interest in buying any of the mogstation stuff. Best glamour to me is dungeon loot. Also don't mind seeing older event items purchasable for a small fee if you weren't around to get them during it. If anything it gives those older items a bit of value if you had been subbed to obtain it. I missed a few outfits myself, would love to have em but not enough to but it.

0 in game power being sold which is the way it should remain.

Seems to be a good enough mix of mogstation/in game rewards imo. Most outfits not from events are character sets so if you want to be yda or cid guess you gotta pay. Only outfit I would buy would be yugiri and only if it had her hair... or red dress yda >.>

[Clethoria]

I don't see this as entitlement and I wholeheartedly agree. A lot of mog station items strike me as things worth earning. Or, what I've seen other Chinese/Korean mmos do, is to have it as both. Like the dyes.

I could pay $30 for a mount, or I could spend a sub period maxing out all Mog beast tribe quests. Having both wont hurt because there will be someone out there to just pay for the thing instead of working for it. Mentorship comes to mind as well. Getting that mount is a pain because it means hundreds of dungeon runs and wouldn't be obtainable in a single sub period unless you had 0 life outside of the game and could dedicate yourself to it day and night. Even if someone ran constant runs at 10 mins each, that's still equals 14 days of absolute continuous play with 0 break time or sleep. But it's still content to strive for and is obtainable within your own efforts in game. An alternate skin of it could be pay to get, but the color variation would make it a clear indicator as to who worked for it and who bought it.