As a healer, is it my job to DPS? A new perspective.

[Taika]

Healers ARE intended to DPS when they don't have to heal.

This is definitely true, if you look at the way the game is designed. The issue is, which I brought up in another thread on the topic, that there are two sides in this discussion. One of them thinks the jobs in this game are defined by how the jobs look like (their name, role name, assumed developer intention etc.), and these people argue that healers shouldn't be forced to DPS because it's not included in this extrinsic definition. The other side is looking at the how the jobs actually work: what abilities do they have, how the content is designed etc. And for the latter people it's obvious that healers should DPS, because that's simply the way the jobs and the game are.

There is no reasoning to be done between the two sides, because their arguments are based on completely different things (one can of course estimate and argue about which starting point makes more sense when we are talking about playing the jobs).

[Feyona]

This is definitely true, if you look at the way the game is designed. The issue is, which I brought up in another thread on the topic, that there are two sides in this discussion. One of them thinks the jobs in this game are defined by how the jobs look like (their name, role name, assumed developer intention etc.), and these people argue that healers shouldn't be forced to DPS because it's not included in this extrinsic definition.

There is no reasoning to be done between the two sides, because their arguments are based on completely different things (one can of course estimate and argue about which starting point makes more sense when we are talking about playing the jobs).

It is not defined by the label it is defined by what you are able to do in the circumstances. Priority is healing, priority is not both. You heal first as the situation allows, it should not be expected in all cases

[Taika]

It is not defined by the label it is defined by what you are able to do in the circumstances. Priority is healing, priority is not both. You heal first as the situation allows, it should not be expected in all cases

No one who supports healer DPS is arguing for anything but what you just said here. You first keep your party safe, then (1) if the situation allows, and (2) you would otherwise either do nothing or do something useless, you should DPS. This is all that's being asked for.

[Judge_Xero]

No one who supports healer DPS is arguing for anything but what you just said here. You first keep your party safe, then (1) if the situation allows, and (2) you would otherwise either do nothing or do something useless, you should DPS. This is all that's being asked for.

There is a grey area though based on player skill, about creating those situations to DPS where I can see it being difficult to gauge.

Like A9S where me and my co-healer can contribute almost 3k DPS to the Raid (85% combined average activity) while the tanks are pushing over 4k DPS combined. Then you could look at another group where the combined healer DPS is maybe 600, with the MT sitting in Tank stance the whole time, and each healer is only actively DPSing maybe 30% of the time. How does one just simply create an extra 55% more windows to DPS under harsher conditions of tank damage. (being DPS stance VS Tank stance etc)

It does make things difficult when looking at group performance to see other healers contributing 5x or more damage while still meeting healer checks.

Duty finder dungeons I could really care less how people perform. That's why I rolled healer is to get fast q's and carry people.
But anything extreme or savage there is a certain skill level I would expect for my groups, and a bit lower expectation for PF groups, since there is a major difference between PF and a group you run with week after week.

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I do hope that SE doesn't increase healing checks, simply because it would be bad for heal only healers. The skill difference between two healers that can coordinate to the level of DPSing 80% of a fight VS two healers that don't DPS at all while still struggling with healing checks is so massive, that a harsh increase in the required healing for fights would utterly destroy most "heal only" healers as far as any type of progression.

[Taika]

But anything extreme or savage there is a certain skill level I would expect for my groups, and a bit lower expectation for PF groups, since there is a major difference between PF and a group you run with week after week.

Yes, I definitely agree with you. What I meant was that the minimum standard for healer play in stuff like leveling dungeons and DF stuff is keeping your party safe and then DPSing if there's an option for it. Of course when the content gets more challenging the expectations will also rise, and static groups can and will usually require much more optimisation from their members.

[Lambdafish]

It is not defined by the label it is defined by what you are able to do in the circumstances. Priority is healing, priority is not both. You heal first as the situation allows, it should not be expected in all cases

That is correct, and the content does allow you to DPS. In raid you have two healers, and at most you only need 1 1/2 healers, and in dungeons the damage is tuned so low that healers either feel like terrible DPS classes or afk and waste everyones time. This isn't going to magically change, in fact - I fear that content is only going to become easier, so I would recommend that you learn more about how your role is actually designed to avoid the "bullying", as you call it (I'd call it people requesting that you play your job the way it is designed)

Taika is right about your expectations. Yes, Healer SHOULD be designed the way that you expect them to be, but the fact of the matter is that what we have in the game promotes healers dealing damage when they are not needed to heal.

[Neela]

This is definitely true, if you look at the way the game is designed. The issue is, which I brought up in another thread on the topic, that there are two sides in this discussion. One of them thinks the jobs in this game are defined by how the jobs look like (their name, role name, assumed developer intention etc.), and these people argue that healers shouldn't be forced to DPS because it's not included in this extrinsic definition. The other side is looking at the how the jobs actually work: what abilities do they have, how the content is designed etc. And for the latter people it's obvious that healers should DPS, because that's simply the way the jobs and the game are.

There is no reasoning to be done between the two sides, because their arguments are based on completely different things (one can of course estimate and argue about which starting point makes more sense when we are talking about playing the jobs).

well I think the whole discussion is just about "can" and "must" – no-one doubts that extra dps is good and the logical way to go if u want to give 100%. it just about the arguments the community is creating to proof their point - and most of them are sadly just not true. content is officially not designed with healer dps in mind, although it helps a lot at several dps checks - true. I can understand why Fey is so stubborn about this... because "saying" the game and jobs are designed for this manner is just not true - and even its proofed by different user with different dev-quotes the comm is still trying to find new arguments to around bush to get this discussion on...

"can" or "must" - thats the breakpoint. not more not less.

[Taika]

content is officially not designed with healer dps in mind, although it helps a lot at several dps checks - true. I can understand why Fey is so stubborn about this... because "saying" the game and jobs are designed for this manner is just not true - and even its proofed by different user with different dev-quotes

This is exactly what I said: you and some others are basing your arguments on extrinsic factors like developer comments which have nothing to do with actual gameplay. While the other side is looking at how the game actually works. And because the developers have obviously designed the game as it actually is, it's a fair argument to make that things like healer DPS is part of developers' intended design (because they have all the power to disable it), and what they say have no relevance to the discussion (since what they say has no actual impact on gameplay).

uhh if someone who build something and explained his intentions behind it - u can't say its untrue and for at least one side you mentioned it got a high relevance o.o

Once again, this is a perfect example of what I was describing, that you and some other people are viewing this as a valid basis for the discussion. While others, like myself, are not, because I don't care how the game is described to work, I only care how it actually works. It's like in FFXI, when the developers designed Ninja as a DPS job, and it ended up being a tank - because that's how it worked the most effectively. The developers could talk as much as they wanted about how it was supposed to be a DPS job, but in the actual game it was played as a tank.

[Neela]

Once again, this is a perfect example of what I was describing, that you and some other people are viewing this as a valid basis for the discussion. While others, like myself, are not, because I don't care how the game is described to work, I only care how it actually works. It's like in FFXI, when the developers designed Ninja as a DPS job, and it ended up being a tank - because that's how it worked the most effectively. The developers could talk as much as they wanted about how it was supposed to be a DPS job, but in the actual game it was played as a tank.

and once again (u seem to like this phrase) - you are free to do so if its your understanding of the game but you can't force others to follow you on this. -> "can" and "must" -> u should see my intention why im still disagreeing, do u?

[Deliciou5]

You can cooperate with a parties wants and needs, but you must if you want them to cooperate back.