As a healer, is it my job to DPS? A new perspective.

[Feyona]

...



SCH is suited as the DPS-Healer like WAR is the DPS-Tank, and they have so many skills that support them in this design space, rouse, bane, DoTs, shadowflare, 3 single target attacks, and energy drain, most of which compliment them as a healer, as they deal damage while the faily or player heals. That is how the job is designed whether you like it or not, and content is designed to allow them to be played that way.

Edit: I should add to the above is that if both Healers are 100% healing, then you WILL be overhealing and wasting time and MP, the exception being lots of deaths or a healing check.

Whether you like it or not scholar is a healer, not a dps. Tanks dpsing is not as different as healing is to dps. Its a completely different skill set for a healer to change to dps. I do so hope SE gives scholar their identity back as a healer as otherwise we only have 2 healing classes to choose from.

[Neela]

Whether you like it or not scholar is a healer, not a dps. Tanks dpsing is not as different as healing is to dps. Its a completely different skill set for a healer to change to dps. I do so hope SE gives scholar their identity back as a healer as otherwise we only have 2 healing classes to choose from.

well... sch was the only healer I got known as dps-hybrid from the very beginning because their dps-skills and support skills come hand in hand. Setting up DoTs in cleric while Lillys autoheals gave you a fair time window to do so. switching back on heavy impact with single & aoe insta heals or to re/precast shield(s) - while DoTs continue to tick with cleric-stat-dmg. schs are (at least for me) the most flexibel ones if we talk about stance-dancing imo... actually its their identity. dunno which other identity you are talking about if we just focus on schs here....

whm feels different for me although I could set up dots as well... but if I dps as whm its mostly aoe dmg in mobs (holy, wind III or asizes) or stone-burst-dmg. there is just bene and/or preset-regs for covering your dps time window - you have to be more flexibel and way faster in stance dancing if it comes to unexpected dmg-impact while you are in cleric.

similar to asts but they have skills which make your reactions even easier to compensate - like synergy, light speed or the insta stance-casts.


I think if we talk about off-heal-dps all 3 cls can burst some fair amount of dmg, if we talk about main-heal-dps - sch/asts got some minor advantages compared to whm in stance dance... but well in the end it doesn't matter which cls you play – u have to be confident situational finding your own time-window to dps ^^

[Feyona]

well... sch was the only healer I got known as dps-hybrid from the very beginning because their dps-skills and support skills come hand in hand.


I think if we talk about off-heal-dps all 3 cls can burst some fair amount of dmg, if we talk about main-heal-dps - sch/asts got some minor advantages compared to whm in stance dance... but well in the end it doesn't matter which cls you play – u have to be confident situational finding your own time-window to dps ^^

Im not sure otherwise wouldnt it be a dps role? After all support classes are dps. And if that was the case why has it got as much healing potency as the other 2 healers? Why does SE want it to stay balanced as a healer rather than a dps? This opinion really comes from the community that sch is more dps.Besides the fact that it has far more abilities than any other class to use at once doesnt feel 'right'

[Neela]

This opinion really comes from the community that sch is more dps.

actually I would second this if we would talk about general healer dps. -
but for sch even their first cls is way more related to dots and dps
than whm first cls. so not sure bout that if we just focus on sch here.

[Feyona]

actually I would second this if we would talk about general healer dps. -
but for sch even their first cls is way more related to dots and dps
than whm first cls. so not sure bout that if we just focus on sch here.

Maybe it wasnt given alot of thought as to how it would be used as far as Im aware SE were surpised by healer dps , it just made sense for arcanist to brance out into 2 roles, one healer and the other dps. While I dont profess to know the intention. It being made into 2 dps doesnt make sense. As one is definitely a healer build, and the other is definitely dps and the dps skills shared

[Lambdafish]

Whether you like it or not scholar is a healer, not a dps. Tanks dpsing is not as different as healing is to dps. Its a completely different skill set for a healer to change to dps. I do so hope SE gives scholar their identity back as a healer as otherwise we only have 2 healing classes to choose from.

I never ever said that Scholar was a DPS. Maybe next time you want a ballad, the BRD should ignore you because their job is to DPS not support your MP, maybe NIN should stop using goad, smokescreen, and shadewalker, maybe WAR should stop using storms eye because that increases DPS not enmity. Jobs have more responsibility than that little nameplate would have you believe and there is more depth to the role than you choose to experience. This would be fine in a single player game, but you have a responsibility to the 7 other people in your party to at least attempt to fully understand your job, and you CHOOSE not to. I can forgive struggling to play the role well, I can understand being unable to DPS because it is too difficult, but I cannot forgive choosing not to because "scholar is a healer, not a dps.".

The fact that I even went through and told you how you can split healing and DPS in raid (if you were struggling), and gave you advice on how to easily manage the two responsibilities feels wasted considering you won't even attempt it.

[KokonoeAiyoko]

Maybe next time you want a ballad, the BRD should ignore you because their job is to DPS not support your MP, maybe NIN should stop using goad, smokescreen, and shadewalker, maybe WAR should stop using storms eye because that increases DPS not enmity.

Oh, look. Another poor comparison! Comparing a move you toggle every now and then that is essentially part of the DPS aspect of a DPS job, or just something you click for free off GCD, or a stance that doesn't really hinder you all too much vs Cleric Stance which hinders you quite a bit and comparing it to constantly doing DPS over and over and over until the monster is dead. Even if you compare that your DPS gets nerfed with BRD, it still isn't anywhere near as bad as healer literally swapping their INT and MND and a healer having to keep everyone alive whilst managing this mechanic.

Also, I don't think I've ever seen someone whine about a NIN not using Shadewalker because most people do not care or cannot notice if they have it ready or not.

[Lambdafish]

Oh, look. Another poor comparison!

Oh look, another post that is devoid of common sense or prior reading of anything that I have said on the subject (it only takes looking back a page or two).

Comparing a move you toggle every now and then that is essentially part of the DPS aspect of a DPS job, or just something you click for free off GCD, or a stance that doesn't really hinder you all too much vs Cleric Stance which hinders you quite a bit and comparing it to constantly doing DPS over and over and over until the monster is dead. Even if you compare that your DPS gets nerfed with BRD, it still isn't anywhere near as bad as healer literally swapping their INT and MND and a healer having to keep everyone alive whilst managing this mechanic.

Actually, it is worse for BRD. Cleric stance's drawbacks can be mitigated through proper preparation: using adlo, then rouse, swapping into cleric stance, throwing up DoTs and shadowflare, then going back out of cleric stance is good DPS for not much healing loss, and you would only ever do this if the healing requirement is low, meaning nothing at all is lost. The difference is that there is a cap on how much healing should be done. If everyones HP is full then any extra healing is a waste. There is no cap on DPS meaning that any amount of time spent playing paeon or ballad is a DPS loss for the BRD, and there is no mitigation for this at all.

Let me ask you, if healer DPS and cleric stance should not exist, then A) what the hell are you doing when you don't need to heal? and B) What would you change the system to, because removing it would make healers both overpowered, and more dull to play for many people who are serious about the role.

Also, I don't think I've ever seen someone whine about a NIN not using Shadewalker because most people do not care or cannot notice if they have it ready or not.

I don't think I've ever seen a NIN protest when asked to use shadewalker, or goad. It seems to be only healers that complain when asked to use their full toolkit (oh, except for BRDs that refuse to sing, but they get the same lecture, and honestly are just bad players)

[KokonoeAiyoko]

Actually, it is worse for BRD. Cleric stance's drawbacks can be mitigated through proper preparation: using adlo, then rouse, swapping into cleric stance, throwing up DoTs and shadowflare, then going back out of cleric stance is good DPS for not much healing loss, and you would only ever do this if the healing requirement is low, meaning nothing at all is lost. The difference is that there is a cap on how much healing should be done. If everyones HP is full then any extra healing is a waste. There is no cap on DPS meaning that any amount of time spent playing paeon or ballad is a DPS loss for the BRD, and there is no mitigation for this at all.

SCH gets away with it in general due to the pet and the easily castable shields. What about WHM, though? Something where you have to heal in real time and have longer cast times? That's far more manual work than merely toggling a song on.

And there's another thing you're forgetting-- you don't often need to use songs anywhere NEAR as often as a healer would be DPSing with Cleric Stance. It's generally almost all the time at this point whereas MP song is honestly for niche moments and generally applies mainly to raid content or the DPS whiping to the point the healer actually runs out of MP.

Let me ask you, if healer DPS and cleric stance should not exist, then A) what the hell are you doing when you don't need to heal? and B) What would you change the system to, because removing it would make healers both overpowered, and more dull to play for many people who are serious about the role.

I don't think healer DPS shouldn't exist nor have I ever said that, I just think your comparison doesn't add up. There is nothing you can outright compare to healer DPS in this game.

I don't think I've ever seen a NIN protest when asked to use shadewalker, or goad. It seems to be only healers that complain when asked to use their full toolkit (oh, except for BRDs that refuse to sing, but they get the same lecture, and honestly are just bad players)

I doubt many would protest to an easily clickable move like Shadewalker. People protest to something that requires a lot more effort/stress in comparison in a game that awkwardly has you go DBZ on mobs more often than heal when your title is "healer" and the game is not designed with its DPS in mind.

You can even tell by Yoshi P's consistent clarification that healer's DPSing as much as we do were def not what they had in mind. Why else does he have to mention several times that

1. Content is not designed with Healer DPS in mind
2. He "hates" Cleric Stance
3. He wants us to mainly focus on healing cause we're healers.

And when you look at how Cleric Stance is designed, to penalize you for actually wanting to DPS and mix healing at the same time. Where would you be healing, anyway? A dungeon with other people. What do you need to be able to do the Main Scenario and FATEs (if solo)? DPS. I feel as if this move was designed so that we wouldn't be using it in this way, and Yoshi P's statements have lead me to believe this.

With that said, you can DPS, I DPS all the time cause It's fun and it makes the dungeon go by faster, but it's very easy to see why people do not want to partake in it compared to any other mechanic in the game.

[Neela]

SCH gets away with it in general due to the pet and the easily castable shields. What about WHM, though? Something where you have to heal in real time and have longer cast times? That's far more manual work than merely toggling a song on.

And there's another thing you're forgetting-- you don't often need to use songs anywhere NEAR as often as a healer would be DPSing with Cleric Stance. It's generally almost all the time at this point whereas MP song is honestly for niche moments and generally applies mainly to raid content or the DPS whiping to the point the healer actually runs out of MP.


I don't think healer DPS shouldn't exist nor have I ever said that, I just think your comparison doesn't add up. There is nothing you can outright compare to healer DPS in this game.



I doubt many would protest to an easily clickable move like Shadewalker. People protest to something that requires a lot more effort/stress in comparison in a game that awkwardly has you go DBZ on mobs more often than heal when your title is "healer" and the game is not designed with its DPS in mind.

You can even tell by Yoshi P's consistent clarification that healer's DPSing as much as we do were def not what they had in mind. Why else does he have to mention several times that

1. Content is not designed with Healer DPS in mind
2. He "hates" Cleric Stance
3. He wants us to mainly focus on healing cause we're healers.

And when you look at how Cleric Stance is designed, to penalize you for actually wanting to DPS and mix healing at the same time. Where would you be healing, anyway? A dungeon with other people. What do you need to be able to do the Main Scenario and FATEs (if solo)? DPS. I feel as if this move was designed so that we wouldn't be using it in this way, and Yoshi P's statements have lead me to believe this.

With that said, you can DPS, I DPS all the time cause It's fun and it makes the dungeon go by faster, but it's very easy to see why people do not want to partake in it compared to any other mechanic in the game.

i... just wanna thank you for this summary – this one post just said it all. cleric shouldn't be compared to dps-utility skills, it covers the intention of cleric in the first way, the problem of the misinterpretation or better the way we got used to it, the Devs opinion about the current status of cleric and the fact that everybody can but MUSNT dps if they are bored or not confident enough to do so.

thx Koko, thank u very much ^^