What is it with some tanks, healers, and dps?

[Maero]

As a blm main myself i know all to well about your first point, even with Quelling and at times waiting said amount to attack a target.
Actually reading your other points i have come across all 3. From time to time i do offer advice but also feel as though some may get offended so i hesitate also.

Palace is not to blame for bad players, the lack of wanting to be the best at your job and reading the skills is the reason for bad.
Bad players have existed before Palace ...
If we go that route then we could also say Fates are to blame for bad players, hunts are also to blame, etc..

[AnaviAnael]

why do people like the buzzword "carry"? kinda sound immature imo.

Carry is used often because it's applicable. The other day I did a Sohm Al hard where the AST used protect, we started the pull and they went AFK without a word. We wiped. They offered no explanations and it became pretty obvious they were only half paying attention during the entire run. Our PLD had to keep himself alive with Clemency. On the final boss, the AST didn't even bother with mechanics and dropped puddles right next to the boss. Our monk then couldn't hit his positionals.

A better example would be 24 man content. You and I are both on Aether, so I know you understand what I'm talking about. How often do tanks NOT grab adds, or not grab the boss if the MT dies? How often do DPS go on auto attack and miss stacking mechanics or meteors on Ozma?


I don't enter content so others can watch Netflix or YouTube. If a person wants to mess around on Facebook, they can do it after. When people say "carry" more often than not they're referring to the people like this who want their rewards while putting in no effort. How is that not carrying?

[Altena]

I think the issue is not with the design of PotD itself, but how squishy, weak and insignificant the levelling floors are.

I am a huge advocate of someone learning how to play their job at level 60, with their entire skillset.
I mean you can grind from 1-30ish on LNC by spamming only a few skills - and be as optimal as the class allows you to be, just as an example.
This to me teaches the player very little, if anything at all. Some roles may benefit from this method - such as a brand new Tank, who has never tanked before, however at least in terms of DPS - EXP lvl 1-50 for the most part is a waste of time.
Give someone the full list of lv 60 skills and they can actually figure out wtf they are meant to do at end game.


The issue with PotD is you just don't need your end game rotations.. The mobs melt before you can even blink. Mobs die almost as fast as you can put your DoTs up as BRD or SMN... You're practically never going to be maintaining Blood on DRG.. You are rarely going to utilize enochain on BLM properly.. You get where I am going with this.. All of this stuff is what makes it near impossible to actually learn how to play at end game in a sufficient manner.

So the issue in my opinion is purely based on how much of a joke the "exp" floors are on PotD, not the PotD system itself.

I would definitely be in agreeance that there seems to be an increased number of players who are clueless as to how to play their jobs at end game. Does this have to do with PotD? Sure, more than likely... However I don't believe the "so many skills thrown at you at once" is the reason. I think the reason is that stuff dies too quick to actually figure out what you're supposed to do when you face content that lasts beyond 4-5 skills / spells.

Even in levelling dungeons, stuff generally stays alive long enough for you to get a rotation off.. Whether that be large pulls, or single packs. You face bosses more frequently, and you generally have to utilize your skills more efficiently in general. Personally I doze off in the lower PotD floors (1-100), and choose to stick to the old fashioned dungeon crawl. So I don't really know what people are doing for EXP these days so I may be speaking from a bit of misinformation here.. So what are people doing to level? Just spamming floors 51-60 over and over?

To me, the exp floors of PotD are about as difficult as FATEs. You can do anything in there and get by.. Buff the difficulty to compete with dungeon difficulty for the higher floors and I imagine the level of player skill will increase by a significant enough portion to notice.

why do people like the buzzword "carry"? kinda sound immature imo.

The word is generally warranted.

For every "thing" that a player in a dungeon isn't doing, the other players have to make up for it.

Think about it like this. If you are carrying a table, and it requires a certain amount of strength to carry that table 100 metres.. Then someone suddenly decides to only use one arm and put in half the effort, that means the 3 other people carrying that table would have to do more work to get that table 100 metres.

Each person carrying that table is responsible for a certain portion of the weight of that table.
If one person slacks off, then the others have to carry the weight for the other person.

[Ama_Hamada]

Or maybe you should look in a mirror to how you come off?

It is kinda rude, The things he listed can happen at any moment with no control, telling people to leave like you are is pretty rude. And you really have no reason or excuse to be rude.

No one is carrying anybody. Stop using it as a scapegoat, to be rude to someone on the forums.


why do people like the buzzword "carry"? kinda sound immature imo.

read my story, that is a good example of carrying. I had to put a lot of extra effort because somehow a pure 270 gear WHM with piety/ spell speed melds and a 275 relic could not fulfill basic functions of healing, putting a lot more weight on my shoulders, using cooldowns that is not intended (using dissipation for mp) just to make up for it.

If you see me use the word carry, there is a damn well good reason for it.

another simple example that is common in leveling DFs even past 50 ones, me doing the most dps as a healer...

[Arrius]

Really wish self discipline and self improvement were common values in society. It's pretty sad that people find apathy and laziness acceptable behavior in teamwork endeavors.

Unless the NA/EU community improve their expectations and actually enforce them via (successful) Vote Kicks at places where underperforming is not acceptable, nothing will change on that level.
And everyone needs to pull their weight when it comes to this issue.

It already worked in a similar way in certain Warring Triad Ex trials.

[Faliandra]

snip

Thank you. You just perfectly put my opinion into words and I couldnt agree more.

This is spot on.

[xbahax92]

enochain

Where did I hear that again... Oh right, last Q&A. Hahah.

[Altena]

Where did I hear that again... Oh right, last Q&A. Hahah.

*Enochian..

Same diff. I don't BLM.

[Kaethra]

To be quite honest, I think some of you are working on the agenda that PotD took away from some of the playerbase of dungeons, and you'd like for that to be alleviated in some form. The issues you all are saying it created or exacerbated were around long before PotD was a thing. And I'll dare say that it hasn't gotten worse. I've ran some of the Heavensward dungeons and it appears most know the mechanics. Some better than I do (simply because its my first time in some of those dungeons after coming back with 2 years of a break).

I did level 100 content in Everquest about 2 years ago. EQ is well known for not being very forgiving if you don't know exactly what you are doing. Even then, even still we had players on these trial dungeons not play their roles properly. When I was running them with a buddy of mine, if he wasn't tanking, and I wasn't healing. We knew the run was going to be a bit interesting. And that was part of the reason we left. We got pigeonholed into two roles because we couldn't find anyone good enough to allow us to play support or dps.

WoW:Legion was similar. But not as bad. But still noticeable. You run a random heroic and you just sometimes get someone in a role that causes the group some issues. They've had to do 90 to 100 levels of dungeons and grinding to get where they are. And there they are.. not knowing a damn thing to what they are supposed to do.

The system cannot, will never teach a player their class, job, or role. I mean the little mission thing in front of every dungeon helps by telling players to throw their shield at stuff. But that begs the question if they needed the game to tell them specifically when to use a skill, how competent can you expect them to be? You all are confusing practice (as we know practice makes perfect) with raw talent. You are getting nostalgic to a time when some dungeon used to be hard for you because you didn't have the practice.

But I'm willing to wager you all could have handled hardmode HW dungeons in 2014 in 2.0 back when AK/WP were the only two dungeons. A few wipes learning something new sure. But you'd get it. Probably even before you ran out of time on the duty. There are some players that just cannot do that. Making them take 5 years to get from 1-60 won't help. I know this, I've seen someone damn near take that long to reach max level in a game. They don't play their role well at all.

Then you have laziness. You can't help that either. Well you can, you avoid the PUG's and run with friends. Many of us do this already. I normally run with a buddy or two so when we run into a detrimental player, we just remove them. Newbies we help, I like the newbies, especially the ones willing to learn. I feel bad for the ones who want to learn and just can't. But even after everything I've said above.. these players actually aren't that common in the queues.

A few pages back, I explained that those players usually avoid queuing for things. Its only things like Praetorium and The Vault normal that you'll see them. Well they have to go there to finish the story. IMO that's where the mistake is. You're putting solo oriented players with groupers. That shouldn't be done. The skill and talent just isn't there. And never will be. Its for this reason I don't pressure my friend (the one who took years in EQ to get to a decent level) to play FFXIV.

That'd be a horrible experience for them. They'd have to do several dungeons and primal normal fights as well as MSQ. And they'd likely want to play a Warrior for the RP. Instead I leave them playing the game they enjoy playing. They've been playing it a little over a year and haven't hit max level yet. Thankfully in ESO they don't have to do the dungeons. They can solo to their hearts content.

The real solution is to divorce solo and group content. Yes we'll still have players who don't know their roles slip through. But at least it will get to a point where you won't see them in higher stuff because they cannot complete the lower stuff. Let the content itself filter them. Because lets face it. The 1-59 game, slow or fast. Dungeon or not. Won't teach you what you need to do at 60. Even veteran players or decent players like us have that issue. All job rotations and how you apply them change drastically from 49 to 50 and 59 to 60.

In many ways the game starts at 60. How fast or slow you got there doesn't matter.

[Altena]

snip.

I mean, it's your experience vs. mine in the instance that I am going to mention here.. However the skill level of players has definitely significantly decreased.
At least from my experience. I won't discount your opinion though, as this is rather subjective and nearly impossible to physically measure.

I am not saying that skill level was always better though - as we did see this back when Bluefog FATE spam was a thing.. However there was a time between this where the skill level of players seemed generally higher to me - and this was after they buffed Dungeon EXP and before the release of PotD.

There are definitely people that take longer to learn content than others, and there always has been. There is no argument there.. However we aren't specifically talking about first timers or people that are new to the dungeon - many of the people I have personally run into that don't pull their own weight, have multiple classes levelled and have done the duty quite a number of times. There seems to be a bit of a trend going on, where people jump into a dungeon with no clue how to use their skills on mobs that survive longer than 10 seconds. I would point the blame on PotD but I don't think the whole system is to blame.

This brings me back to my argument on my last post.
I am a big fan of having your entire set of skills at your disposal to figure out how to play your class - however the learning medium isn't there.
I argue that PotD is a great system as it allows people explore their class at end game.. However the issue with it is that the content is just far too faceroll and requires a similar thought process to that of a Bluefog FATE. The difficulty is just far too easy. Experience aside, AK and WP at iLvl sync is still much "harder" than PotD. I can say that much for certain.