Harassing Healers - or: Please allow Parsers

[Shougun]

I said;
There is a "don't ask don't tell" policy on the use of parsers. However, parser users who brag about it in chat or use it against other players can be and have been banned. Strictly speaking, use of third party tools is explicitly against the rules.

Don't ask don't tell policies are lazy*. Harassment is and of course should be punishable. *Of course they'll need to approach the issue in a way that doesn't state "reading from memory is A okay", otherwise a whole slew of other programs are accepted too (like radar) and that's not okay (there are a number of options though, and sort of a built in focus of any thread pushing for a parser option in game).

Adding a parser that goes beyond a personal use private parsing tool is handing a weapon to the community and hoping they all use it appropriately - which of course they will not. By handing that weapon to the community, use of it is automatically legitimized, while at the moment use of parsers is technically against the rules, and abuse of them is actively enforced.

Legitimize, means to make lawful - seeing as harassment would still be punishable, it factually does not make harassment legitimized. And abuse of them would still be actively enforced if the parser was just made acceptable in the open.

For a change in rate of people being negative I'm of the mind that rude people will still be rude and any shift will be minimal. As for it being a new weapon for the people, the extra damage so to say of allowing it, that has already happened it just has a glamour on it right now. (it's used in judgments already). Maybe you think it'll make more people rude, I think that it'll not change people's personalities but empower them with information for that personality. A rude person could use fact on you, sure, at this moment they just kick you or have to be vague (but you can still report it), however a nice person could be that more potent now that they have the ability to review and make informed conversation. Also it helps the self.

Why should anyone have to report it? It shouldn't be happening in the first place. Look, this player community has shown time and again that it will abuse whatever features are implemented in the game for personal gain. A parser would be no different.

They already do it, you already have to report it. All you're doing now is making people who go to the shadows better by SE policy. Well not always better, but information can lead to a lot of changes that would make you better. Even people who think they're good, they get a parser and all a sudden a whole new world opens up (unless they're some really amazing gamer, even then).

So you /already/ have that issue, time to reap the rewards at least.

Adding actual numbers will do nothing to help that situation. Confrontation-ally arguing that someone is playing poorly will never go well, with or without parser numbers. But, providing an official parser that enables such confrontation could encourage that very behavior.

Actual numbers is incredibly helpful. You better discuss and inform, not everyone is a raging goblin that will spew hate when you offer advice or request a change. That applies to the self as well. If someone is like "btw, we're not passing heart phase, but we're really close could you add your DoT into the mix I think we'll get it then".

No, actually parsing *is* banable. People have been banned for using parsers, it all comes down to context and whether someone reports it. Technically it's against the conditions you agree to when you sign up. If someone complains about it, it's very possible that you could be banned simply for using a parser and talking about it in-game.

As already discussed Yoshida has been very clear on this point. Go put your name up on youtube, stream the whole thing with a parse in view and then have a friend send that to SE. Watch as they do nothing.

Harassment is banable. Using third party programs is the word they use because they have to be careful about memory reading programs (can make a radar), so it's so much easier to say all is banable. But again SE has a specific policy that they're not going to do anything unless you start running around and slapping your parse up and down their face.

The parsing is not going to get you banned, its what you do with it.

I used to argue completely against parsers, and still feel they are of very limited use and are potentially dangerous. But I think it's interesting that parser debates are always all or nothing affairs where pro-parser debaters will accept nothing less than full group, public parsing for all. I've changed my position before now to say that *if* parsers were officially implemented, a private, personal parsing tool could be useful to some, and would be hard to abuse, and so would be acceptable to me. But such a suggestion is always shot down because it will not let people like you use parser data against other players. That reveals the true motive here.

Wow, massive assumptions. I never said I want to harass people or that I find personal parsing suggestion as "unacceptable" (have not commented on it, and am not opposed to personal parsing tools - I personally would like to use it for myself, as I very rarely comment on other play styles except things like enmity tips on new leaf tanks because it can be stressful when your stuff is yoyoing about and you don't understand how to fix it). I just said we're getting fogged with no benefits. The damage is already here, we already get reamed by people who parse but hide their information with vague wordings or just kick you. I'm merely asking for the rewards that come along with parsing as we already take the damage.

Seriously though, people like me? Massively inappropriate assumption. Edit: Their intent was different than it felt as read, their post later in thread explains intention.

It always comes back to wanting to use the numbers from a parser as a stick to beat others with. I don't find that to be a very positive thing.

Already happens, and I'm not a fan of it either but it will not go anywhere because SE has no intention of making parsers an actual issue (by themselves, they'll do nothing as they've already said - needs to be in combination with another action that specifically reveals parser and to get any sort of punishment another action like harassment - first part easy for people to hide, second part being report-able in all scenarios). Might as well keep reporting rude players and let everyone help each other better.

[SaitoHikari]

Speaking from personal experience... This may get me banned from the forums, but I cannot stand by and idly watch.

I find that the default attitude for many people is to think that they're good enough, and that there's nowhere that needed to be improved. I used to think so too, until I began parsing my own performance. Boy, how wrong I was. Since then, I've refined the hell out of my playing style, to the point where my own damage output is now high enough that a dungeon roulette run where a healer DPSes or not makes next to no difference to me. Which is to say, I used to think healers should be required to DPS in roulettes. Now, I no longer think so, because the vast majority of other DPS I've run into that rip on the healer for lack of DPS should really be looking at their own performance first.

(To give you an idea of how my runs usually go, I'm probably one of the most aggressive White Mages you'd ever meet. But on average, my runs STILL go faster if I go as a Bard instead and end up with a healer that doesn't DPS or barely does so at all.)

I would say at the very minimum, a personal parser would go a long way towards improving the community, at least up to the standards that the Japanese playerbase expects of their fellow teammates. The toxicity already exists, parser or not. But at the very least, a personal parser would do more good than harm at this point, I'd think. One cannot improve themselves when they don't know exactly where they are in the first place.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

I see people say this all the time and this point is moot. SE didnt give healers DPS skills for dungeons they were given these skills so they can solo and do story/side quests. That being said if you are a healer that can DPS then hey why not. To say all healers need to DPS well that again goes back to "play style". Logically though a healers main job is to heal and as long as that is being done and time isnt wasted with a needless wipe then im good with it.

Actually, this sentiment is disingenuous. If healers were only intended to heal, why not simply lock Cleric Stance to solo only content? They already do it in PvP. Furthermore, you wouldn't need abilities like Assize, Aero III, Gravity or Holy for Solo trials. Now I don't think the devs considered just how prevalent the healer DPS meta would become but it's silly to think they had absolutely no anticipation of healer DPS. The Conjurer questline more or less smacks you in the face with it.

[Tint]

I find that the default attitude for many people is to think that they're good enough, and that there's nowhere that needed to be improved. I used to think so too, until I began parsing my own performance. Boy, how wrong I was. Since then, I've refined the hell out of my playing style, to the point where my own damage output is now high enough that a dungeon roulette run where a healer DPSes or not makes next to no difference to me. Which is to say, I used to think healers should be required to DPS in roulettes. Now, I no longer think so, because the vast majority of other DPS I've run into that rip on the healer for lack of DPS should really be looking at their own performance first.

it's true, a dpsing healer makes less damage than the difference between a good and a bad DD.

however, i started this topic not to talk about if a healer should dps or not, but to point out that the whole healer dps debatte on the official board feels like a witch hunt. sure, a dpsing healer is better than a non dpsing healer. we all know that. but every other day a new topic starts and it seems the whole purpose is to harass the non dpsing healers and the dpsing healers put themself into a better light.
i don't think this is something wich should be tolerated on the official boards. but if it's tolerated, why are parsers not tolerated? why is it okay to harass healers here, but using a tool wich could be used to harass someone is not allowed?

[Nixxe]

Speaking from personal experience... This may get me banned from the forums, but I cannot stand by and idly watch.

I find that the default attitude for many people is to think that they're good enough, and that there's nowhere that needed to be improved. I used to think so too, until I began parsing my own performance. Boy, how wrong I was. Since then, I've refined the hell out of my playing style, to the point where my own damage output is now high enough that a dungeon roulette run where a healer DPSes or not makes next to no difference to me. Which is to say, I used to think healers should be required to DPS in roulettes. Now, I no longer think so, because the vast majority of other DPS I've run into that rip on the healer for lack of DPS should really be looking at their own performance first.

(To give you an idea of how my runs usually go, I'm probably one of the most aggressive White Mages you'd ever meet. But on average, my runs STILL go faster if I go as a Bard instead and end up with a healer that doesn't DPS or barely does so at all.)

I would say at the very minimum, a personal parser would go a long way towards improving the community, at least up to the standards that the Japanese playerbase expects of their fellow teammates. The toxicity already exists, parser or not. But at the very least, a personal parser would do more good than harm at this point, I'd think. One cannot improve themselves when they don't know exactly where they are in the first place.

I assume by "personal parser," you mean something that only reports on yourself, in which case a personal parser would be pretty useless, except to players who are already motivated to improve, in which case I'm sure they can manage to find the tools they need. This is because a single person's DPS devoid of any other context is just a number. It doesn't tell you if you did well or if you did bad or if you're ahead or behind. It's just a number. It's not until you contextualize that number and begin really dissecting it that it gains any sort of value as a tool for self-improvement. Paired with the numbers of others, it might at least shock someone into action if they see they're constantly very low, though even that's questionable as I know from years of MMO experience plenty just rush to the conclusion that it's not their fault, but their class or spec's fault. All in all though, tools for self-improvement are not useful without the attitude for self-improvement and simply giving someone the tools does little, if anything, to cultivate that attitude.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

A private personal parser that allows players to view their own performance is one thing. It is a private learning tool that can be used to examine your own performance over a range of conditions. A group parser might be useful in end-game content where high DPS checks must be met, but in general you already know if someone is playing grossly below par, why do you need a parser to tell that?

Although I like and have supported this idea, it will suffer no less abuse. All people will do is ask you to post your DPS numbers in chat if you're failing to meet checks or skip mechanics. Should you refuse, chances are they'll assume it's you and boot. A parse really isn't going to make the community response worse. If you step foot into Savage raiding, it's nigh guaranteed someone has ACT running and they'll find a way around getting rid of you if they believe you're pulling sub par numbers.

In my opinion, this all comes down to the general approach. In the NA/EU community, it feels that there is a negative approach to player standard where the most common thought is about making other perform better for your own convenience, and kicking/avoiding them if they do not improve. People want a parser to *prove* to other players that they are bad and must improve or be kicked. That's not really a coaching methodology, it's more about issuing ultimatums.

A nice sentiment, however why do people have to beholden to accept mediocrity? If you set up a bird farm party with the intent of blowing through mechanics because, let's face it, RNG will likely keep you there a while. You shouldn't have to grit your teeth and teach people how to do things they should already know. It goes both ways. If someone joins a farm party and can't execute a proper opener, I'm not going to spend 30 minutes explaining it to them because that wastes everyone else's time when their expectations were bird farming.

At the same time, be honest about everyone's mistakes - including our own - but try not to be confrontational. So instead of "hey you jerk watch the aoEs you were standing in stupid and died, git gud!" it could be "I hate those AoEs, it so easy to step in one by mistake, gotta watch out for them, I almost got caught myself." Both ways convey the same message - be more careful of AoE markers and get out of them. Which one would you rather hear?

A bit too verbose, but otherwise, I agree. There is no need to shame someone who makes mistakes. They aren't going to improve if you scream how stupid they are. At the same time, if someone continuously pulls low numbers, can't handle mechanics and whatnot. I'm not going to fault the group for wanting to kick.

[Kallera]

it's true, a dpsing healer makes less damage than the difference between a good and a bad DD.

however, i started this topic not to talk about if a healer should dps or not, but to point out that the whole healer dps debatte on the official board feels like a witch hunt. sure, a dpsing healer is better than a non dpsing healer. we all know that. but every other day a new topic starts and it seems the whole purpose is to harass the non dpsing healers and the dpsing healers put themself into a better light.
i don't think this is something wich should be tolerated on the official boards. but if it's tolerated, why are parsers not tolerated? why is it okay to harass healers here, but using a tool wich could be used to harass someone is not allowed?

Because the tool can be used to harass someone AND would irrevocably change the requirements in pf and beyond. how newbie friendly could ffxiv claim to be if the bulk of its pf and fc requirements demanded ###dps or be kicked, with the only guidance outside of the game and in spoileriffic youtube videos?

[Greedalox]

Because the tool can be used to harass

demanded ###dps or be kicked

This is a mindset that can be applied to many nice things this community could have, but probably will never because the fear of abuse seems to outweigh the massive benefits. You can almost never implement a new tool without it being pushed and abused, but what you can do is weigh the pro's and con's on paper, attempt to implement, analyze what's right and wrong and then fill in the abused holes.

Tools aren't inherently evil, what you say as irrevocably changing in PF already exists. Just look at Zurvan and people don't even need to parse to know that you didn't skip Soar. So seeing as the issue already exists, it's not a con for the In Favor Of Parsers crowd, but rather a potential solution as having a parser at your disposal is a great tool for learning the finer details of your own class' and your own potential.

[dragonseth07]

Because the tool can be used to harass someone AND would irrevocably change the requirements in pf and beyond. how newbie friendly could ffxiv claim to be if the bulk of its pf and fc requirements demanded ###dps or be kicked, with the only guidance outside of the game and in spoileriffic youtube videos?

Removing a tool because of possible abuse is how we ended up with the garbage fest that is Feast right now. Oh man, it's so much fun not being able to talk to teammates. Learning and teaching are basically impossible now.

[Khemorex]

actually i was going to post more , but then i was like , it dosnt matter anyway because , someone gona try to twist the rules to theyre own advantage over and over again :P

then i was like :

mmmhhhhh
maybe people just forgot how to have fun in a game in general?
or some cant accept a NO as an answer as long they dont get theyre candy :P