Required Class/Rank failed - Can we have Optimal Rank and Favoured Class back?

[Alkoun]

If using Optimal gear, on the wrong class or level makes the stats worse than anything you could wear, then what's the point of using it?

Not trying to argue, just want some clarification... maybe I'm not understanding the discussion.

This is what I'm trying to understand too. I get the point that having the choice to do it is desired, but why would you want to? Beyond RP, beyond odd class-switching for quick synths or whatever...

[AamesxDavid]

If using Optimal gear, on the wrong class or level makes the stats worse than anything you could wear, then what's the point of using it?

Sorry for answering a question with a question, but what does it matter? If there isn't a reason for people to do it, then they won't. Either way, it doesn't affect you whether they do or not. That's my point. I don't care what hair color you choose because it doesn't affect gameplay. You shouldn't care why people wear what they want to wear if it doesn't affect gameplay. Which brings me to this:

Yoshida: ...We have all of these changes to the battle system and the items that existed really didn’t fit with the changes that we had made and they were breaking the balance, whether it be the parameters or the restrictions on the items and whether they could be equipped by these classes or these classes.

If having certain classes equipping gear meant for other classes is breaking the balance, then don't balance for it. Remove all the stats for all I care - it's not the issue. No one should be complaining that their GLA gear doesn't do anything for them stat-wise while they're on THM.

If we were to have kept these original items with this new battle system, it would have created a lot of confusion not just with new players but also with players that have been playing the game for a long time.

Two things contribute to this confusion: the fact that it was a new system and the fact that it wasn't obvious what anything meant - particularly the difference between "favors" and "suits". It doesn't mean the system can't be adjusted to make more sense while not being restrictive.

For example, let's toss out "favors", and just go with "suits". You get the benefits of gear when it "suits" your class; you don't when it doesn't. For every level the gear is above you, the stats are lowered by some percentage - let's say 20, that way 5 levels above you, it's completely useless, regardless of what class you are.

I think there's probably an even more elegant and balanced solution, but I think this works as a simple example.

This is what I'm trying to understand too. I get the point that having the choice to do it is desired, but why would you want to? Beyond RP, beyond odd class-switching for quick synths or whatever...

Not to be a jerk, but just how far beyond those do we need to go? Again, if it doesn't affect gameplay, what justifications do you require for thinking it's a good idea to let people do what they want to do?

[RemVye]

Sorry for answering a question with a question, but what does it matter? If there isn't a reason for people to do it, then they won't. Either way, it doesn't affect you whether they do or not. That's my point. I don't care what hair color you choose because it doesn't affect gameplay. You shouldn't care why people wear what they want to wear if it doesn't affect gameplay. Which brings me to this:



If having certain classes equipping gear meant for other classes is breaking the balance, then don't balance for it. Remove all the stats for all I care - it's not the issue. No one should be complaining that their GLA gear doesn't do anything for them stat-wise while they're on THM.



Two things contribute to this confusion: the fact that it was a new system and the fact that it wasn't obvious what anything meant - particularly the difference between "favors" and "suits". It doesn't mean the system can't be adjusted to make more sense while not being restrictive.

For example, let's toss out "favors", and just go with "suits". You get the benefits of gear when it "suits" your class; you don't when it doesn't. For every level the gear is above you, the stats are lowered by some percentage - let's say 20, that way 5 levels above you, it's completely useless, regardless of what class you are.

I think there's probably an even more elegant and balanced solution, but I think this works as a simple example.



Not to be a jerk, but just how far beyond those do we need to go? Again, if it doesn't affect gameplay, what justifications do you require for thinking it's a good idea to let people do what they want to do?

My brain is getting foggy, I think I see what you're saying.

Though I think it would affect gameplay at some point. If there were no restrictions, I know some people would just wear Gladiator gear on all classes, even if it gave no benefit at all. Just to have the look of the armor or what have you.

If they took away all restrictions then I would have to start filtering my parties to make sure people have "the right gear". This is at least cut down somewhat with the current system. You can still wear things below your rank, and trust me a lot of people do that (Partying with level 42 gladiator the other day wearing all level 25 gear. LOL needless to say, we got another tanker).

I'm all for freedom of choice, but I think destroying the balance of gear would further fuel people to say "I don't get it, when I wear this gear with a sword its great, but if I pick up a piece of wood (wand) I get no benefits at all?".

I guess what I'm trying to say is that they had to draw the line somewhere, and the required system seems to be the norm for MMO's. It works, it's easier to balance. You only lose the ability to make your character look a certain way.

I'm just trying to understand the argument... is that right, you just want to look a certain way? lol... still confused a bit

[AamesxDavid]

Though I think it would affect gameplay at some point. If there were no restrictions, I know some people would just wear Gladiator gear on all classes, even if it gave no benefit at all. Just to have the look of the armor or what have you.

Sure, it's possible that some people would, though I think it would be a pretty small minority.

If they took away all restrictions then I would have to start filtering my parties to make sure people have "the right gear".

This is the "I don't want to see dumb people" argument, and while I hear that concern (when it comes to parties), restrictions just hide the fact that they don't understand the needs of their class. That is, any GLA who would wear mage gear in a party is probably not going to benefit your party, even if you dress them up like a GLA. And as you say:

You can still wear things below your rank, and trust me a lot of people do that

It's possible that people do this because they can't afford/find newer gear, but to your more pertinent point about wearing gear of other classes, you can do this with the old gear. So how often have you seen a GLA in THM gear? When people are primarily concerned with aesthetics, they're usually not partying. If they are, do what you do with the people who wear level 25 gear as a level 42.

I'm all for freedom of choice, but I think destroying the balance of gear would further fuel people to say "I don't get it, when I wear this gear with a sword its great, but if I pick up a piece of wood (wand) I get no benefits at all?".

I can't prove wrong your speculation, of course, but I disagree. I think if someone sees that a piece of gear "suits" only GLA, and they get no benefit from it as a THM, it will be rather clear.

I'm just trying to understand the argument... is that right, you just want to look a certain way? lol... still confused a bit

If it's easier for you to have a real reason, then fine, go with that. But once again, my real argument is that it simply doesn't matter why you'd do it. There's no gameplay reason for a level 50 to equip level 1 gear, but they are free to do it.

[RemVye]

Sure, it's possible that some people would, though I think it would be a pretty small minority.



This is the "I don't want to see dumb people" argument, and while I hear that concern (when it comes to parties), restrictions just hide the fact that they don't understand the needs of their class. That is, any GLA who would wear mage gear in a party is probably not going to benefit your party, even if you dress them up like a GLA. And as you say:



It's possible that people do this because they can't afford/find newer gear, but to your more pertinent point about wearing gear of other classes, you can do this with the old gear. So how often have you seen a GLA in THM gear? When people are primarily concerned with aesthetics, they're usually not partying. If they are, do what you do with the people who wear level 25 gear as a level 42.



I can't prove wrong your speculation, of course, but I disagree. I think if someone sees that a piece of gear "suits" only GLA, and they get no benefit from it as a THM, it will be rather clear.



If it's easier for you to have a real reason, then fine, go with that. But once again, my real argument is that it simply doesn't matter why you'd do it. There's no gameplay reason for a level 50 to equip level 1 gear, but they are free to do it.

Yeah I hear you... I guess as long as it doesn't affect me it shouldn't matter. If they made it so all gear gave zero stats, including defense and bonus stats, then I would be fine with that. But I still think that will just open the can of worms for people to argue for the items to have stats even if it doesn't favor their class.

And probably mostly a balance thing as well. It might be too strong to have every great piece of +attack or +str gear on the same class (just an example). Zero'ing out the stats would prevent this, but I still think I prefer having required geared.

I understand your argument and respect your position. Thanks for explaining.

[AamesxDavid]

But I still think that will just open the can of worms for people to argue for the items to have stats even if it doesn't favor their class.

Yeah, there probably would be a good amount of that.. but I think it's hard to say right now. Most of the (real) issues with the optimal system seem to stem from the confusion over whether a piece of gear works better than another - and it's a totally legitimate complaint, because it is confusing, and it does affect gameplay. With that cleared up, I think it'll make any complaints about what isn't favored far less legitimate, and I'll be the one "Like"ing the posts saying "stop complaining".

Anyway, thanks for being one of the few who actually seem to listen.

[Tsuga]

If having certain classes equipping gear meant for other classes is breaking the balance, then don't balance for it. Remove all the stats for all I care - it's not the issue. No one should be complaining that their GLA gear doesn't do anything for them stat-wise while they're on THM.



For example, let's toss out "favors", and just go with "suits". You get the benefits of gear when it "suits" your class; you don't when it doesn't. For every level the gear is above you, the stats are lowered by some percentage - let's say 20, that way 5 levels above you, it's completely useless, regardless of what class you are.

I think there's probably an even more elegant and balanced solution, but I think this works as a simple example.

The bottom line is that restricting gear to class and level was the simplest solution to implement, the most widely understood solution among people who play games in this genre (new or old), the optimal solution for future content and class balance, and a solution that fosters class goals and milestones (example, "I'm rank 30 gld, so now I can wear that super awesome rank 30 gld armor from that instance that I ran!").

Unfortunately that sacrificed flexibility, and "immersion" (as some people like to fall on the argument that it's "unrealistic"), in regards to a lot of gear (there will still be gear that is equip-able by everyone). But just like with the action bar, and the hate meter, this is something that most everyone will forget about in two months.

[AamesxDavid]

The bottom line is that restricting gear to class and level was the simplest solution to implement, the most widely understood solution among people who play games in this genre (new or old)

Totally agree. I don't fault SE throwing it in as a quick fix. But if we're in this for the long haul, through major changes that fundamentally alter gameplay, I think we can do better.

the optimal solution for future content and class balance

The balance thing.. again, fine as a quick fix for balance, but just gimp it for inappropriate classes/levels. There's no need to balance the game for people who are equipping things for purely aesthetic reasons.

and a solution that fosters class goals and milestones (example, "I'm rank 30 gld, so now I can wear that super awesome rank 30 gld armor from that instance that I ran!").

How about "Now that I am the appropriate class/level, this gear will finally benefit me!"? I mean, are you equipping for stats or looks? Given your apparent contempt for people who want to equip things for aesthetic reasons, isn't the fact that you're getting good stats from it more important? And if so, what's the difference between my example and yours?

But just like with the action bar, and the hate meter, this is something that most everyone will forget about in two months.

You could very well be right about that, but people becoming complacent with something doesn't make it the best system. And if we still have some combination of required and favored gear (as is my understanding), I think which gear follows which system will seem arbitrary and still be frustrating.

[Tsuga]

Totally agree. I don't fault SE throwing it in as a quick fix. But if we're in this for the long haul, through major changes that fundamentally alter gameplay, I think we can do better.

I don't disagree with you that there are probably more unique, or interesting solutions. However this game has all ready tried to innovate in so many areas, and failed. What this game needs is to shake of the reputation that it is full of systems that are flawed, and thus make it a broken game. According to the producer, this system was flawed to the point that it would have been too difficult to try to integrate into the future plans for content in this game. According to a majority of the player base it was flawed, as shown when we voted yes to revamping the system. I think that this game needed to return to MMO and RPG roots in some areas for reasons of balance, and accessibility, and this is one of those instances.

Yoshida is quoted as saying that he is not aiming to "reinvent the wheel". He's here to fix this game, and make it marketable. Sometimes that means sacrificing what may have turned into a better idea with more time and manpower.

The balance thing.. again, fine as a quick fix for balance, but just gimp it for inappropriate classes/levels. There's no need to balance the game for people who are equipping things for purely aesthetic reasons.

Sure, that may work. But that would also require more time, and more variables for the devs to deal with. It is clear that it was more of a hassle to deal with than it was worth, and so Yoshida posed the question to us "do you guys even like this system?". Most of us said no.

How about "Now that I am the appropriate class/level, this gear will finally benefit me!"? I mean, are you equipping for stats or looks? Given your apparent contempt for people who want to equip things for aesthetic reasons, isn't the fact that you're getting good stats from it more important? And if so, what's the difference between my example and yours?

I have no problem with anyone equipping gear for looks. I've never said I have a problem with that. What I have a problem with is over-complicating what should be one of the most easy to pick up, streamlined, and balanced systems in the game so that a small group people can play dress up.

Also, having gear at a restricted level fosters milestones in the same way that learning skills at a certain level fosters milestones. Or being able to quest for jobs at a certain level functions as a milestone. Or being able to participate in a certain quest at a certain level functions as a milestone.

It is a carrot to dangle in front of players, and that is a good thing for an MMO because it encourages people to play, and it gives you a reason to continue leveling.

You could very well be right about that, but people becoming complacent with something doesn't make it the best system. And if we still have some combination of required and favored gear (as is my understanding), I think which gear follows which system will seem arbitrary and still be frustrating.

I'm not saying the system is perfect, but I am saying that it is less complicated than favored gear, and so it is more user friendly. I'm saying that it is a system that is easier to balance for future content. I'm saying that it is a step in the right direction to repairing this game, and attracting new players to it.

[AamesxDavid]

According to a majority of the player base it was flawed, as shown when we voted yes to revamping the system. I think that this game needed to return to MMO and RPG roots in some areas for reasons of balance, and accessibility, and this is one of those instances.

And while I understand that returning to the roots may be the easiest way, and fine as a temporary solution, it would still be nice to see innovation there. I think the system had promise, and was held back by execution - as many, many things were at launch. If that means going back to a tried and true system, then fine. I'd just like to keep in mind the aspects of the system that did (or could) work. Not now, not in the next patch, but maybe 2.0?

It is clear that it was more of a hassle to deal with than it was worth, and so Yoshida posed the question to us "do you guys even like this system?". Most of us said no.

It may be unprovable speculation at this point, but at that point, the question might as well have been "would you rather keep this system you don't really understand or have one that you already understand?" I don't blame anyone for saying they didn't like that system, I just don't think the freedom it allowed was the problem.

I have no problem with anyone equipping gear for looks. I've never said I have a problem with that.

In that case, I guess you don't mean it to, but

so that a small group people can play dress up.

sounds pretty contemptuous. I understand not wanting to complicate the system, though - I don't like the current favored system, I just see a few virtues in it that I'd prefer to stay in place.

I'm saying that it is a step in the right direction to repairing this game, and attracting new users to it.

Having an already understood may be a selling point in certain cases, but I think having a unique, easily-understandable system is a better one. I don't think it's good enough to rely on previous systems whenever something new doesn't immediately work out. I know you're not saying that, so I don't mean to imply that you are. I just want to steer clear of generalizations like "this system is bad and that one is good", and instead pick out individual aspects of a system that work or don't work. FFXIV 2.0 has a lot to make up for to a lot of people, and that's going to mean having uniqueness with certain standard systems - the best of both worlds.