PLD, WAR, & DRK balancing ideas

[Brian_]

Clearing A12S is harder on PLD than it is on DRK or WAR. You either have to tank swap or are stretched very thin on CDs. Both those constitute making a fight harder in my eyes.

Could you still clear with PLD? Sure. I don't think the point was that PLD isn't viable. The point was that it's not optimal and it isn't.

Does being optimal ultimately matter to most people? It depends. PLD wasn't optimal back in Gordias and it mattered because the gap was large enough to have a real impact on everyone regardless of skill or motivation. PLD isn't optimal in A12S but the gap is comparably much smaller so it matters much less.

Relative balance is what's important because absolute balance is basically impossible.

[Sarcatica]

Clearing A12S is harder on PLD than it is on DRK or WAR. You either have to tank swap or are stretched very thin on CDs. Both those constitute making a fight harder in my eyes.

I disagree that it is harder to clear with PLD in a12s, it was simply a case of PLD not using the right CDs.

In the earlier days, PLD used Rampart into Sentinel during the 2 stasis phase. This led to PLD not having Sentinel during 1st inception which was key. Little did we know that tweaking CDs made it way easier for PLD to survive tank busters even when tanking alone.

I was a believer that PLD taxed WAR into swap for tank busters but it was later debunked when a better CD rotation got out. Sentinel (1st stasis), Rampart (2nd stasis), Rampart (timegate), Sentinel (1st inception), Rampart (2nd inception). This rotation later on became incorporated into DRK as well because on how similar the CDs are to PLD's, extra on the DM for more mitigation that allows tanking outside of Grit with less healing needed. Obviously not optimal to bring PLD still, just illustrating that PLD has what it takes to clear a12s without any help from WAR.

For a4s exclusively, the tank busters hit very frequently at ~30secs in between iirc which at that time was the STR meta as well where everything was tight on max HP (17k hp). DRK had way better standing on that turn mostly because of DM with the 60sec CD. I remember I had to have my WAR swap for sure on the 3rd/4th leg while I tanked the fausts.

[Brian_]

You just said it yourself that the DRK has it easier due to DM.

Like I said...

You either have to tank swap OR are stretched very thin on CDs.

Your example is a CD rotation that has been stretched very thin. Using just a Rampart to mitigate something necessitates ShO or on-point healer shielding / virus / disable / etc. Compare that to DRK who can just throw out DM on a 60s recast and stack multiple substantial CDs for each buster or WAR who can always fall back on IB if stuff goes south, stack CDs, and rely on the shorter CD of Holmgang for PH + Cleave pairings.

Again, I never said PLD couldn't clear. I was just echoing the sentiment that PLD is indeed not optimal and makes clearing A12S harder.

[Chronons]

In the first place, it is a very hard task for MMOs to diversify raid picks.

These are actually really solid points. Its even the case that players will determine whether its better to have/prioritize ranged or melee DPS depending on melee up time in a fight. It just adds more reasons as to while I may agree in concept, I'm not so sure its practical without major changes to the game.

[Ultimatecalibur]

Snip

Would you please stop with the Appeals to Accomplishment, Arguments from Authority and Ad Hominems?

The ability for comps that include Paladins to clear A12S does not mean that there are not imbalances between jobs. In fact Speedclearing content using specific comps actually showcases the existence of those imbalances.

I am going to pose this question to you, have you cleared at least a12s as a tank to comment on this matter? Your opinions need to have facts to back it up if you are going to make a preposterous claim such as "PLD makes it harder to clear a12s". If you still have problem to clear a12s with PLD with all the gear you can get now, you clearly are in the dark and it's best to ponder about it.

This is a perfect example of a fallacious Appeal to Accomplishment. You are denying the validity of an argument based purely on completion of A12S.

I am current progressing on a12s (learning and mastering the mechanics is my group's primary limitation right now) as a Paladin and am seeing a ton of places that if I switched to Dark Knight I could make things far easier for myself and my healers. I know Dark Mind's shorter cooldown would make handling the first two Punishing Heats and the General's Time much easier. I also know that Plunge and the the Dark Knight's higher DpS would make killing the General's Wings faster and easier. I do not need to have cleared A12S to know these things.

[DestroyerOfLargePlanets]

I know Dark Mind's shorter cooldown would make handling the first two Punishing Heats and the General's Time much easier.

Yeah, DRK is absolutely OP in AS12 -- especially with General's Time. Pair Reprisal with Shadowskin and you have the rough equivalent of a Shadow Wall but for 20s instead of just 10s. Shadow Wall after that, then Dark Mind after that. Delirium is a free 10% on top of that and General's Time ends up hitting like a baby. Hell, with a SCH, a DRK can tank that add without tank stance which really blew my mind when I think back on my first days in AS12 where every tankbuster from Time nearly squashed me. Truly OP, the DRK is indeed.

[shao32]

snip

mmmm that make me wonder if they can desing the bosses with 2 tank buster, one magical and other phisical, to make PLD and DRK being better in x phases instead of x bosses.

[Ultimatecalibur]

mmmm that make me wonder if they can desing the bosses with 2 tank buster, one magical and other phisical, to make PLD and DRK being better in x phases instead of x bosses.

That would only partially help. Instead of the comp Meta being War + Drk or War + Pld based only tankbuster damage type the comp Meta would be War + Drk/Pld. Doesn't really change the "must have Warrior"ness of the Meta.

[Sarcatica]

snip

What I am highlighting here is that PLD can clear just fine even without swapping from WAR hence has no problem at taking tank busters alone from 0-100 of the fight, exception on the last phase obviously. CDs are definitely not stretched thin because they pretty much line up 100% just fine. People propagate that PLD makes it harder to clear a12s, let that sink into you, just a clear and people get the notion of having to bring DRK because of this whole thing. What's next? WHM can't clear a12s? Obviously there has to be a limit to how players make believe others, Creator has been lenient so far that all jobs can just as easily.

Speedrunning is a part that most raiders don't even run at all. Existence of such imbalance doesn't impede with your clear of any content and that's by far true. DRK better in any content versus PLD, so what, it doesn't have any effect on anyone who wants to clear or do farm parties on Creator. DM atm is only nice for DRK to push DPS without the Grit penalty while still being able to deal with the tank busters, and this extra DPS topic is honestly another matter for when you have cleared A12S, or at least comfortable to push your DPS outside of Grit/ShO.

Most teams with PLD let the PLD tank General's Might on add phase and this has a deliberate intention which is to accommodate CDs if the PLD does phase 1 tanking. There are so many PLD povs that have cleared and the killing of General's Wings was just as smooth. I have no idea what you are talking about tbh.

I'm sorry for this but looking from your logs so far, you aren't even playing PLD well enough. That, added with your team's performance will be pretty hard to even look at the later phase of A12S, despite being full ilvl (?).

[shao32]

That would only partially help. Instead of the comp Meta being War + Drk or War + Pld based only tankbuster damage type the comp Meta would be War + Drk/Pld. Doesn't really change the "must have Warrior"ness of the Meta.

well now SAM is confirmed like a dps, make me think about if they go to get a slashing debuff that dont lower they personal dps like ninja does, making stom eye no longer mandatory eliminating the chance of nerfing it and with somekind of utility on PLD and DRK to compentase the WAR personal dps and storm path to make PLD/DRK a very good combo in the presence of a SAM, with leaving X tank/WAR plus ninja the other set up, i belive its pretty fair.

still im think they need to ddo something with raw intuition and equilibrium, but whitout information about of the stats changes and new skills i dont go to get there yet.