So... that spiderman shirt... (new job tease)

[New_Game_Plus]

Blue Mage! BLUE MAGE. It's gotta be Blue Mage. But also kind of hoping for Samurai.

On a side note, I will be very displeased if they release two dps classes.

[Remus]

I don't mind Tanks, but the current problem I have with Tanks getting new jobs I just have a feeling they can't make them very different the same with Healers. I mean AST is just a fake WHM/SCH but with buffs. DRK is just a Magic PLD but has more damage than them. Those roles just seem very limited on what you can do for new job ideas with it being underpowered or overpowered. Now DRK has taken PLD place and now PLD isn't picked as much anymore. They add AST no one really takes them due to being underpowered and now they just made them overpowered and people take them over WHM if they could due to the almighty Balance card (enhanced Balance is a Blood for Blood...)

While you have DPS the only ones that I would say plays similar are the Ranged DPS (MCH/BRD) but that is only because of cast time. It just seems like they can do so much more when they make a DPS and still keep it balanced somewhat. That's why if they add 2 DPS now I wouldn't mind if it gives them more time to think about what they could do to make a more interesting Healer/Tank in the expansion afterwards and not add DPS.

This is just my opinion of course so don't take it as fact.

[Lewtskie]

They designed Tanks and Healers into a very tight corner; their roles are so critical in function that you can't by as dynamic or flashy as you can with DPS. SO long as the right amount of damage is delivered they can design DPS any number of ways from having stack-and-release mechanics to a constant barrage of combos and finishers; anything under the Sun. Because of how they designed fights Tanks and Healers have much more defined requisites. Tanks MUST have their backs against the wall because of conal/aoe busters and they must have a cycle of mitigation buffs. At this point the only thing they can be given that keeps them fresh and differing from each other are offensive tactics. But the tanking aspect will always have to remain the same unless they completely reconstruct it.

[Claymore65]

I firmly disagree with the argument that "They can't make different Tanks/Healers".

Aside from Positionals, pretty much any "Melee DPS" mechanic can be used on a Tank. Whether it's stacks to use abilities, weapon combos, stance systems, debuffs, even "melee cast bars" (assuming damage doesn't interrupt) it could work fine on a tank. You simply turn what would be an offensive buff into a defensive one. For example, if you wanted to turn the Monk into a tank, you'd have Greased Lightning reduce damage instead. Tanks only really need a number of defensive cooldowns to reduce damage, and a couple of key abilities such as Provoke. Aside from positionals and a "take damage to deal damage mechanic", I can't think of any truly unique gameplay elements that you could put on a Melee DPS instead of a tank. They could still build a tank that is focused on procs, or a tank with a pet to reduce damage. There are still plenty of unique playstyle elements they can implement, they just have to choose to apply it to a Tank instead of a DPS.

Healers are a little harder, but there is still plenty of room to explore. Many mechanics already applied to ranged DPS can easily be applied to a healer. For example, a Dancer healer could use a weapon combo-like mechanic, however instead of dealing damage with each hit they might heal with some or all of them. Something like a Chemist, which has Mudra-like abilities to heal is certainly possible. There are even plenty of other healing options available, such as Heal-over-time focused healers, leech healers, and more.

Plus, the new Role-based system replacing Cross-class will help with this immensely. They've mentioned that key abilities like Provoke would be implemented as a Role based ability, meaning all Tanks will have it by default. They mentioned interest in making other things, like basic Defensive Cooldowns, into Role-based skills as well. This makes expansion into Healers and Tanks substantially easier. You can design encounters knowing for a fact the Tank will have Provoke, or the Healers can use Swiftcast etc. At that point, you can make sure the playstyle of each job is enjoyable.

I don't really buy the "they can't create more Healers/Tank" arguments. They have plenty of room to explore there.

[mosaicex]

...Tanks MUST have their backs against the wall because of conal/aoe busters and they must have a cycle of mitigation buffs. ...

I could say the same for DPS.

Every DPS must have cycle of damage buffs.
Every DPS must have dots.
Every DPS must have some sort of self buffs upkeep.
And so on.

Statements like these work both way.

[Lewtskie]

Statements like these work both way.

Except to operate within the specific rules of "deal damage" you don't need those. Tanks have to always be able to maintain a standalone position so as to not turn the boss, unless a given mechanic requires it. They must also have abilities that can mitigate a strong incoming attack or series of attacks to either survive or reduce resource strain. These were not set into the tanks because tanks have them, they were set into the role because this is how they have designed bosses. While new bosses can be made different, older bosses will always have to be kept in mind.

Every DPS up to this point has been provided a DoT, a self buff, and a move to increase output because otherwise you are excessively simplifying the mechanics of a Job. Without those you make a DPS that stands there and uses one move to deal damage. That is the basic principle of a DPS. You could easily have a DPS without a DoT, and instead factor in a new method of maintaining damage.

if you wanted to turn the Monk into a tank, you'd have Greased Lightning reduce damage instead.

Totally feasible, and you're right. Any number of combat mechanics could be reworked to function for defensive purposes. But not every system. Taking a Monk and turning GL into defensive stacks, you could not do positionals as that could endanger the group, and if the gap between no stacks and full stacks is too great, with it taking enough time inbetween to build up, something would have to give elsewhere; a MNK losing GL3 feels like its the end of the world but unless you're already just barely meeting the necessary levels to pass a DPS check, the fight could go on. If that difference were on a tank, that could end up very badly. Your OT would need to be able to pick up in your place while you rebuild yourself just in case hell breaks loose.

[Rhaja]

I'm not sure what gimmick Samurai would have. If you squint hard enough at DRK... all that parrying and dodging, two handed swords, abilities that get powered up through channeling inner magic/chi/focus.
I know they said they considered SAM before going with Dark Knight. It seems if anything the fact it was going to be in 3.0 works against it being in 4.0 as, to me at least, it looks like they reused a lot of the initial concept for DRK.

This is something I would be willing to put money on. The Dev's are all about reusing resources, so I don't see why they would scrap one tank design and make a whole other one when they can just tag Dark on it and suddenly it fits. I've seen countering as a main mechanic tossed around a lot but that just says Blue Mage to me. I'm still hoping that the Spider-Man Shirt alludes to the Symbiotes Caranage, Venon, Toxin, and Scream. They're an alien race that attaches itself to a host in order to survive and at times in a parasitic manner, very similar to the voidlings that sneak into our world and attach themselves onto a host in order to survive. We've also been getting a lot of focus on the Void as of late so a class that derives from it would be showing up at a prime time.

[Vexander]

Part of me gets the feeling they might reveal Samurai -and- Blue Mage in a few days, and then never tell us which the shirt was a reference to, just to keep this debate quasi-alive in the future for further speculation threads. "Remember the spiderman shirt referencing <insert job of personal preference>?"

[Ceasaria]

Part of me gets the feeling they might reveal Samurai -and- Blue Mage in a few days, and then never tell us which the shirt was a reference to, just to keep this debate quasi-alive in the future for further speculation threads. "Remember the spiderman shirt referencing <insert job of personal preference>?"

Or it would be funny he says, "During the last Fan Fest, I wore the wrong t-shirt. In fact, Spiderman shirt is one of the t-shirt for 5.0"

[Remus]

snip

Like I said you can do it, I wouldn't mind seeing Tanks and Healer classes. The problem is anytime in MMOs where they experiment on tanks/healers how they play they always come out overpowered or underpowered due to just how the role is then have to spend a forever balancing it because they can't find the sweet spot for it purely based on how it was designed. It's the main reason games release DPS most of the time because they are easy to balance and you generally have more freedom with them without needing to take too many things into consideration.