Mentor minimum requirement is too low / needs adjustment

[Brian_]

I honestly feel if you want better mentors is to remove the rewards that are attached to the title. If the only reward you got from being mentor was the satisfaction of helping new people I feel less people would wear it or even bother. However, just like PvP, you may not like it but you wave a fancy glamour or mount and people will flock to it till they earn it, then drop it. Least that is how I feel about it.

You posted this garbage in another topic about mentors and I will repeat what I said then.

You don't get good teachers by asking them to do it for free. You don't build an entire education system off the tiny amount of people who will do something purely out of passion while sacrificing everything else.

You get good teachers by paying them a good salary, properly testing and screening your teachers, and putting in a proper and effective system of education.

The problem right now isn't the reward.

The problem right now is that SE only requires you to have an elementary school diploma to teach a college level class. The problem right now is that the mentor status, mentor roulette, and the novice channel are all complete failures as education systems. Removing the reward is not going to fix any of that. If you think the reward is the problem, you are blind.

[AlphaFox]

You posted this garbage in another topic about mentors and I will repeat what I said then.

You don't get good teachers by asking them to do it for free. You don't build an entire education system off the tiny amount of people who will do something purely out of passion while sacrificing everything else.

You get good teachers by paying them a good salary, properly testing and screening your teachers, and putting in a proper and effective system of education.

The problem right now isn't the reward.

The problem right now is that SE only requires you to have an elementary school diploma to teach a college level class. The problem right now is that the mentor status, mentor roulette, and the novice channel are all complete failures as education systems. Removing the reward is not going to fix any of that. If you think the reward is the problem, you are blind.

Then please, instead of attacking my opinion with your own, state what you would change to make only those who are truly educated stand above those who would just farm Ifrit NM unsycned 10000 times if need be just to get the title of mentor so they may start earning the mount? Because as long as you have a reward people want at the end they will still do all that is required to start earning it, just because they are able to perform the best doesn't mean they are fit to be teachers or would even want to help. You say its garbage but some agree with me and I personally have no problem helping people for free, I don't need a shiny, oversized, steroid pumped Pegasus to want to help people.

[Brian_]

Then please, instead of attacking my opinion with your own, state what you would change to make only those who are truly educated stand above those who would just farm Ifrit NM unsycned 10000 times if need be just to get the title of mentor so they may start earning the mount? Because as long as you have a reward people want at the end they will still do all that is required to start earning it, just because they are able to perform the best doesn't mean they are fit to be teachers or would even want to help. You say its garbage but some agree with me and I personally have no problem helping people for free, I don't need a shiny, oversized, steroid pumped Pegasus to want to help people.

I'm not attacking your opinion with mine. I'm attacking your opinion with actual logic and reason based on real life facts.

It's not my opinion that if you stopped paying professors and teachers that your education system would collapse. It's not my opinion that if you stopped funding schools they would have serious problems.

Meanwhile, all you've done is use your own situation to set an arbitrary standard for others.

Again, like I said in another topic where you had this asinine stance, raiding is the same. Some people argue that all rewards should be removed from raiding and that it should be purely about the challenge. No gear, no tomestones, no minions, no mounts, no achievements. Just your personal fulfillment. Anyone with a working brain knows that the raiding community would implode if you did that.

As with many things, it's about the carrot and the stick. It's about using rewards to get people to act the way you want them to. The same applies to mentors AND STUDENTS. Currently, there isn't much of carrot for mentors and there is no carrot for students to improve. And, the carrot for mentors is leading them in the wrong direction. That's not a problem with the carrot. That's a problem with the direction you are leading them in.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

snip

You are drawing a false equivalent. Mentors are not college professors, they are intended to be people willing to offer advice for no tangible benefit beyond the help itself. A better comparison to Alpha's stance is people who volunteer their time at senior citizen homes or feeding the homeless. Neither are paid yet people do it purely out of the satisfaction they helped someone else. The raider comparable makes no sense as its an entirely different mentality. We raid specifically for rewards, be it our personal parses, gear or a pretty little title. Mentoring is meant only to teach new players in the same sense people who make various guides for jobs get next to nothing for their time and effort. A prime example on Balmung is one of the top tier raiders who joins learning parties purely to teach people how to clear Savage. They get literally nothing out of it except knowing they helped a new raid group get their first clear. That is what I imagine Alpha is referring to.

Dangling a carrot only encourages people with no interest whatsoever in helping new players to put on the silly little crown and grind for a mount. If you want to say removing the aforementioned "carrot" would see mentorship die instantly. By all means, but it is an opinion.

[Brian_]

You are drawing a false equivalent. Mentors are not college professors, they are intended to be people willing to offer advice for no tangible benefit beyond the help itself. A better comparison to Alpha's stance is people who volunteer their time at senior citizen homes or feeding the homeless. Neither are paid yet people do it purely out of the satisfaction they helped someone else. The raider comparable makes no sense as its an entirely different mentality. We raid specifically for rewards, be it our personal parses, gear or a pretty little title. Mentoring is meant only to teach new players in the same sense people who make various guides for jobs get next to nothing for their time and effort. A prime example on Balmung is one of the top tier raiders who joins learning parties purely to teach people how to clear Savage. They get literally nothing out of it except knowing they helped a new raid group get their first clear. That is what I imagine Alpha is referring to.

Dangling a carrot only encourages people with no interest whatsoever in helping new players to put on the silly little crown and grind for a mount. If you want to say removing the aforementioned "carrot" would see mentorship die instantly. By all means. but it is an opinion.

It's not a false equivalency at all.

For a lot of skilled players, if you want them to dedicate their time and effort to something, you are going to need to entice them to do that.

If you want a qualified professor or teacher to teach at your school, for most, you're going to need to give them proper compensation.

Like I already said, will some help out purely for the sake of helping out? Sure. I join plenty of learning parties just to help out. But, plenty of PF listings for learning or weekly clear groups go unfilled for their full listing time limit or turn into trap parties. Clearly, there aren't enough people like me to support a self-volunteering system. In the ideal world, I'm sure we'd all love it if 3-4 elite helpers joined all our learning parties. We don't live in that world.

Which is exactly the same as raiding. Are there some people who raid purely for the enjoyment and challenge? Yea. There are. Are there some people who raid purely to improve as a player? Yea. That's actually part of why I join some groups as a helper. But, are there enough to support a self-motivation system or justify content designed for that purpose? No. We already saw what happened with SCoB Savage and that still had titles.

And if you removed the lore / scripture / gold and the achievements / associated rewards from mentor roulette, would the number of people doing it drop a lot? Hell yes it would.

Taking your example of helpers, if said helper desperately needed 300 scripture for an upgrade 2 hours before weekly reset, do you think they'd still spend those 2 hours in that learning party? For the overwhelming majority of qualified helpers, hell no they wouldn't. However, if they got 300 scripture for teaching that party effectively, would they join? I would. I'm sure a lot of people would. At that point, it just comes down to having a system in place that properly assesses the job a mentor has done.

We already see this happen with tomestone bonuses whenever tomestones are really needed for something. Unfortunately, because there is no real incentive to actually teach a player rather than just carry them outside of some fights like Sephirot EX, A11S, and other fights with restrictive assigned mechanics, people end up learning very little.

Imagine if you could bypass the weekly Savage book and chest restriction if 4-7 people in your group have newbie bonus. Would more helpers join groups? Hell yea. That's what rewards can do. Then it's just a matter of dealing with people exploiting the system and really finding a way to encourage education over carries. Fights with restrictive individual responsibilities like A11S already accomplish this.