Mentor minimum requirement is too low / needs adjustment

[Lufir]

I think the requirements are just fine. As others have said, it doesn't matter how much instances or play time someone has, bad players will be bad. Also, clearing content like Alex Savage and recent Extreme Primals do absolutely nothing for new players and shouldn't matter in the promotion of a Mentor. New players just need the basics of the game, class tips, and casual content help. And savage raiders really can't offer new players anything different than a good mentor who is perfectly knowledgeable and adept about these basic parts of the game.

I'd also like to add that in my experience, for every bad mentor, there is a bad new player. These new players either a) refuse to listen or ignore tips on how to play their job correctly or a fight mechanic. b) refuse to listen to someone simply because of the "mentor" status and how it has gotten a bad reputation. There are absolutely bad mentors out there. But, there are also very good ones out there who truly help. It goes both ways. Both mentors and new players are equally responsible in giving and taking knowledge.

[Brian_]

I honestly feel if you want better mentors is to remove the rewards that are attached to the title. If the only reward you got from being mentor was the satisfaction of helping new people I feel less people would wear it or even bother. However, just like PvP, you may not like it but you wave a fancy glamour or mount and people will flock to it till they earn it, then drop it. Least that is how I feel about it.

You posted this garbage in another topic about mentors and I will repeat what I said then.

You don't get good teachers by asking them to do it for free. You don't build an entire education system off the tiny amount of people who will do something purely out of passion while sacrificing everything else.

You get good teachers by paying them a good salary, properly testing and screening your teachers, and putting in a proper and effective system of education.

The problem right now isn't the reward.

The problem right now is that SE only requires you to have an elementary school diploma to teach a college level class. The problem right now is that the mentor status, mentor roulette, and the novice channel are all complete failures as education systems. Removing the reward is not going to fix any of that. If you think the reward is the problem, you are blind.

[AlphaFox]

You posted this garbage in another topic about mentors and I will repeat what I said then.

You don't get good teachers by asking them to do it for free. You don't build an entire education system off the tiny amount of people who will do something purely out of passion while sacrificing everything else.

You get good teachers by paying them a good salary, properly testing and screening your teachers, and putting in a proper and effective system of education.

The problem right now isn't the reward.

The problem right now is that SE only requires you to have an elementary school diploma to teach a college level class. The problem right now is that the mentor status, mentor roulette, and the novice channel are all complete failures as education systems. Removing the reward is not going to fix any of that. If you think the reward is the problem, you are blind.

Then please, instead of attacking my opinion with your own, state what you would change to make only those who are truly educated stand above those who would just farm Ifrit NM unsycned 10000 times if need be just to get the title of mentor so they may start earning the mount? Because as long as you have a reward people want at the end they will still do all that is required to start earning it, just because they are able to perform the best doesn't mean they are fit to be teachers or would even want to help. You say its garbage but some agree with me and I personally have no problem helping people for free, I don't need a shiny, oversized, steroid pumped Pegasus to want to help people.

[Brian_]

Then please, instead of attacking my opinion with your own, state what you would change to make only those who are truly educated stand above those who would just farm Ifrit NM unsycned 10000 times if need be just to get the title of mentor so they may start earning the mount? Because as long as you have a reward people want at the end they will still do all that is required to start earning it, just because they are able to perform the best doesn't mean they are fit to be teachers or would even want to help. You say its garbage but some agree with me and I personally have no problem helping people for free, I don't need a shiny, oversized, steroid pumped Pegasus to want to help people.

I'm not attacking your opinion with mine. I'm attacking your opinion with actual logic and reason based on real life facts.

It's not my opinion that if you stopped paying professors and teachers that your education system would collapse. It's not my opinion that if you stopped funding schools they would have serious problems.

Meanwhile, all you've done is use your own situation to set an arbitrary standard for others.

Again, like I said in another topic where you had this asinine stance, raiding is the same. Some people argue that all rewards should be removed from raiding and that it should be purely about the challenge. No gear, no tomestones, no minions, no mounts, no achievements. Just your personal fulfillment. Anyone with a working brain knows that the raiding community would implode if you did that.

As with many things, it's about the carrot and the stick. It's about using rewards to get people to act the way you want them to. The same applies to mentors AND STUDENTS. Currently, there isn't much of carrot for mentors and there is no carrot for students to improve. And, the carrot for mentors is leading them in the wrong direction. That's not a problem with the carrot. That's a problem with the direction you are leading them in.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

snip

You are drawing a false equivalent. Mentors are not college professors, they are intended to be people willing to offer advice for no tangible benefit beyond the help itself. A better comparison to Alpha's stance is people who volunteer their time at senior citizen homes or feeding the homeless. Neither are paid yet people do it purely out of the satisfaction they helped someone else. The raider comparable makes no sense as its an entirely different mentality. We raid specifically for rewards, be it our personal parses, gear or a pretty little title. Mentoring is meant only to teach new players in the same sense people who make various guides for jobs get next to nothing for their time and effort. A prime example on Balmung is one of the top tier raiders who joins learning parties purely to teach people how to clear Savage. They get literally nothing out of it except knowing they helped a new raid group get their first clear. That is what I imagine Alpha is referring to.

Dangling a carrot only encourages people with no interest whatsoever in helping new players to put on the silly little crown and grind for a mount. If you want to say removing the aforementioned "carrot" would see mentorship die instantly. By all means, but it is an opinion.

[Brian_]

You are drawing a false equivalent. Mentors are not college professors, they are intended to be people willing to offer advice for no tangible benefit beyond the help itself. A better comparison to Alpha's stance is people who volunteer their time at senior citizen homes or feeding the homeless. Neither are paid yet people do it purely out of the satisfaction they helped someone else. The raider comparable makes no sense as its an entirely different mentality. We raid specifically for rewards, be it our personal parses, gear or a pretty little title. Mentoring is meant only to teach new players in the same sense people who make various guides for jobs get next to nothing for their time and effort. A prime example on Balmung is one of the top tier raiders who joins learning parties purely to teach people how to clear Savage. They get literally nothing out of it except knowing they helped a new raid group get their first clear. That is what I imagine Alpha is referring to.

Dangling a carrot only encourages people with no interest whatsoever in helping new players to put on the silly little crown and grind for a mount. If you want to say removing the aforementioned "carrot" would see mentorship die instantly. By all means. but it is an opinion.

It's not a false equivalency at all.

For a lot of skilled players, if you want them to dedicate their time and effort to something, you are going to need to entice them to do that.

If you want a qualified professor or teacher to teach at your school, for most, you're going to need to give them proper compensation.

Like I already said, will some help out purely for the sake of helping out? Sure. I join plenty of learning parties just to help out. But, plenty of PF listings for learning or weekly clear groups go unfilled for their full listing time limit or turn into trap parties. Clearly, there aren't enough people like me to support a self-volunteering system. In the ideal world, I'm sure we'd all love it if 3-4 elite helpers joined all our learning parties. We don't live in that world.

Which is exactly the same as raiding. Are there some people who raid purely for the enjoyment and challenge? Yea. There are. Are there some people who raid purely to improve as a player? Yea. That's actually part of why I join some groups as a helper. But, are there enough to support a self-motivation system or justify content designed for that purpose? No. We already saw what happened with SCoB Savage and that still had titles.

And if you removed the lore / scripture / gold and the achievements / associated rewards from mentor roulette, would the number of people doing it drop a lot? Hell yes it would.

Taking your example of helpers, if said helper desperately needed 300 scripture for an upgrade 2 hours before weekly reset, do you think they'd still spend those 2 hours in that learning party? For the overwhelming majority of qualified helpers, hell no they wouldn't. However, if they got 300 scripture for teaching that party effectively, would they join? I would. I'm sure a lot of people would. At that point, it just comes down to having a system in place that properly assesses the job a mentor has done.

We already see this happen with tomestone bonuses whenever tomestones are really needed for something. Unfortunately, because there is no real incentive to actually teach a player rather than just carry them outside of some fights like Sephirot EX, A11S, and other fights with restrictive assigned mechanics, people end up learning very little.

Imagine if you could bypass the weekly Savage book and chest restriction if 4-7 people in your group have newbie bonus. Would more helpers join groups? Hell yea. That's what rewards can do. Then it's just a matter of dealing with people exploiting the system and really finding a way to encourage education over carries. Fights with restrictive individual responsibilities like A11S already accomplish this.

[Xlantaa]

The problem with mentors is not the requirement, but the attitude. A person with shitty attitude should be not able to be mentor, even if he is the pro of the pros with Rank 1 in AS12 etcetc (people mistake being good with being good person). But, how the hell you can do that? Game doesn't have an AI to detect who is nice player and who is toxic. A mentor need patience, and not be a "vote kick" asshole because a player is strugling with something. Should teach others (always they want to learn) and not do things like tell someone who is new at tank "you're a tank, pull 600000 mobs or I'll kick you", as I see a lot of times.

But, how the hell the game will know who have good attitude and wishes to help?

[Roth_Trailfinder]

I am currently not a mentor, mostly because I did not bother levelling a healer role from 50-60 when Heavensward was released. Meanwhile my /playtime is logged at 643 days, I have beaten A12S, I have all DoH/DoL classes at 60 (despite being lazy with collectables) and all round consider myself a veteran player. I mostly play battle content, yet I am not a mentor due to the requirement of having a healer at 60.

Now this post isn't just me whinging that I am not a mentor (because honestly I don't care to be one). I am however highlighting the fact that if I wanted to, someone who has played the game since 1.x, has logged nearly 2 years of "logged in" time, and completed the highest tier raid in its current state, does not meet the requirements.

You sure you don't?

There are two sets of requirements. The first set is the one you focused upon, requiring one tank, one healer, one dps all at 60, etc.

The other set involves taking a crafter to 60, and a gatherer to 60, and a few other things that escape me right now, largely because I'd already met them when the Mentor system came out.

Meeting either set will allow you to become a Mentor. I was a mentor with WAR/PLD at 50 and DRK at 30, thanks to the crafter/gatherer option. You may have to do a few quests or gather some collectibles, I don't know, but my whole point is that you do not have to level a Healer to 60 for Mentor status if you do not want to.

[Serilda]

I've noticed on my server that mentors with the crown on display are almost never actually in the Novice Network. Those without the crown are usually better mentors than those who are doing it as a status symbol. It's weird. Thankfully those who actually participate in the NN are helpful and encouraging to all of the newcomers so the system seems to be performing a function.

By the way, I'm a Mentor and I completely suck at many parts the game (not quite as bad as the tank in the story, but I have my moments). That doesn't mean I can't help new players, because POTDing a tank to 60 and running easy roulettes over and over doesn't necessarily mean I know anything worthwhile about that role (I didn't actually do that, but I'm not great). Having the common sense to acknowledge that you suck as a tank and shouldn't be handing out tank advice is something that no number of roulettes done or commendations received is ever going to filter out, so I don't think raising the requirements will make a single ounce of difference; crown-chasers will just farm up the new requirements and continue being bad Mentors while those who would have actually been helping in the NN will suddenly be locked out. Common sense is very difficult to filter for with an automated system.

Edit: Incidentally, I'm on a low pop server and our NN usually has 1-8 Mentors in it unless it's peak time during an in-game event, and at any given time half of them will be AFK or busy. If you make it too hard for people to qualify you'll end up with a system which is actually completely empty on smaller servers because the crown-holics don't participate fully. Please consider that too.

[Alleo]

I agree with you OP the requirements are way to low for this.

And yes like Roth_Trailfinder said you can even become a battle mentor with just gatherers or crafters..I am a mentor thanks to this because I care way more for DOH/DOL classes than the others yet I feel that its bad that you can be any mentor by just getting it unlocked with the gatherer/crafter requirements..How am I good as a PVP mentor even though I barely have done any PVP matches? Why I am allowed to be a battle mentor if I dont even have a tank at 60? (I am also far away from the dungeon requirement thanks to disliking them)

I dont understand why they created a system where you can choose all crowns even though you are only good in one?

I think they should first restrict the use of the crown. You should only be able to wear the battle crown if you fit the requirements. The same for PVP and Gatherer/Crafter. If I would be in charge I would also take away the mount since this only creates problems with people that want the crown only to get that. But since I am not the one that decides this I will say that they should change it so that you can either get it with the roulette or with a certain amount of pvp matches or a certain amount of collectibles. (Because if people can only wear the crown with the correct requirements only the battle mentors would have a mount)

After that I would increase the requirements and people should be forced through some kind of test. Not sure what you can do for PVP but for battle it could be some kind of arena battle which you have to be at least decent in each three roles to pass it and for gatherers/crafters they could have some special items that they have to gather or craft that cant be bought on the MB. This would show that someone has at least some kind of experience.