Why people hate bard using songs?

[Cynfael]

your MIN/MAX perp only wants you to fluff the ONE mage and two weak healers' numbers, as all of DPS hold back, sabotaging their full potential.

What?

...will do everything in their power to avoid you using your TP or MP restores even if it means never pushing their DPS as far as they can go.

Then maybe you can explain to us the advantage of using TP and MP restoration skills unnecessarily?

I'm not understanding the correlation between using these skills and pushing DPS when A) encounter design infrequently requires them unless heavy mistakes are made in a raid environment and B) Paeon and Ballad both reduce the BRD's personal DPS. For example, if a group is TP starved due to excessive uptime, the BRD is definitely going to sing Paeon, so I don't know what you would want beyond that.

Also, I'm not sure why you're trying to suggest that Foe isn't very good, because it is. It's not as if BRDs are horribly weak on their own and need Foe to make up the difference.

[Lollie]

Cause instead of pushing their DPS so that they need you, your MIN/MAX perp only wants you to fluff the ONE mage and two weak healers' numbers, as all of DPS hold back, sabotaging their full potential.

Serious question, what I believe you are saying is I should use more resources so I need mp/tp.

How as a melee. am I supposed to push my potention and more specifically the group as a whole's potential with more tp, when a) on a standard trash pull I can use my highest tp consuming ability (besides sprint of course) and if the other dps is doing so as well not run out of tp and be full for the next pull by the time the group stops (keeping in mind brd blow the ever loving s### out of mob packs), or b) be single target fighting and doing the most optimum rotations on any melee which take 4+ minutes to hit the starvation point, push my DPS and resource usage harder so I need more TP on a regular basis when your average no break encounter is under 4 minutes?

Not even factoring in mp restore because that just benefits those weak healers or that 1 mage dps, or that mp/tp songs reducing that tasty brd aoe dmg output.

[RuleofThree]

Remember when bards were cool? And had far more than 3-4 songs, and where a shit ton more versatile and useful? Those that played FFXI do.

[MPNZ]

Because of the heavy DPS focus since 3.0's launch and the newer MP regeneration abilities for WHM: jobs with lots of support skills are now being pressured to focus on increasing their DPS and action management (yuck). Maybe. I've only had just a few complaints about this, but it's been the opposite for me since lv60, because I can get way too caught up in my rotations too easily and I never check my party's compositions, ever. XD

[SlyRoyale]

Speaking as a BRD main here, OP, you need to know when to play certain songs. Most of the time, you'll be playing Swiftsong and Foe Requiem, and only playing Mage's Ballad or Army's Paeon when absolutely necessary. It sounds like you're playing Ballad and Paeon when there is no need for them. If you want to make the most of your songs, this is what you have to do:

1) Swiftsong between pulls, Foe Requiem for just about every encounter.
2) Battle Voice Foe Requiem on boss encounters, or on trash if it takes 3+ minutes to get to the boss when you last used it.
3) Only play Mage's Ballad when your healers need the MP to keep everyone alive and to revive people, especially when their methods of restoring MP aren't readily available.
4) Only play Army's Paeon when your physical DPS need it, especially when they're running low and their Invigorate is on cooldown.

Follow that, and you'll be golden.

[Mimilu]

Remember when bards were cool? And had far more than 3-4 songs, and where a shit ton more versatile and useful? Those that played FFXI do.

While I loved XI's Bards, I would like to point out that they couldn't do anything without a party (even WHM can solo with the right setup) and, with the inclusion of Corsair and Geomancer, have fallen from grace as the preferred buffer in the current meta because of being the only one of the three that mainly damages via Melee attacks, with only one or two damaging songs.

[Maero]

Blm, Smn, Ninja, healers and even DK ALL benefit from Foe, so to say Bard singing is gimping yourself out even if it just benefits say a caster and healer is not exactly good advice at all.

[SlyRoyale]

To continue from the post above mine here, the ONLY DPS loss you get from Foe Requiem is spending a GCD to play it in combat. No 10% damage penalty, just spending a GCD on a 1.5s cast to help boost the damage of your party's attack spells by making your enemies weaker to them. That one GCD spent singing the song over spending it on a Heavy Shot can be made up easily with a caster or healer DPS alone, or even your DRK AoEing and your NIN using Raiton/Katon.

Anyone who says that Foe Requiem is a DPS loss doesn't know how to play BRD properly.

[ShaneDawn]

snip

If the Bard has to consistently sing TP/MP, the bigger problem is most likely the overall raid DPS being too low, making the fights drag on for too long. No top team "pushes" their classes to their limit as you mention it in a way that actively requires the Bard/Mch to sing resources for them. Quite the contrary, in fact, as high DPS teams make singing resources redundant, as you never reach the point of starvation.

As said before, TP/MP songs will be sang during down-time periods, if possible. T9 had significant down-time. If you're talking about A9S, you can kill it in or less than 4mins without ever needing to sing TP/MP at all. If need be, the Bard should sing during minied, but idk if many groups even see that mechanic anymore.

Taking into assumption that most parties run a Ninja,with them. If there's no Ninja, then the Bard may have to sing TP on combat on some fights.

[RiisWolf]

Snip

What makes you think I'm talking about the "top team" who most likely CAN'T suffer from resource starvation because they crushed it that hard with high end gear? MIN/MAX?

I'm talking about the clowns who plague the raid scene. The ones who'd rather strike 1 of 8 trash hugging the boss at a time while there is zero reason to keep any one of them alive, there by wasting everyone's time. And I mean not a single decimate, Overpower, quick nock, blizzard 2 (summoner), holy, Gravity, or rockbreaker! The type who'll shun you for singing at all, then ask for it TP regen you just tried to give them 12 seconds later for the 12th time in a row. The type who'll honestly believes you are good if you "use all your tools" instead of using them effectively and efficiently, none of which they do at all. "Gotta use all your tools", then why aren't you using your AoEs to kill all 9 trash and damage the boss? "Gotta use all your tools", then why as a healer do you always neglect to mitigate damage while doing DPS every time? "Gotta use all your tools", then why shame the paladin for trying to save himself while there's a completely lack of healing during the AUTO ATTACKS? "Gotta use all your tools", don't lie, the very nature of your MIN/MAX means you will never use all your tools, so why make it up? "Gotta use all your tools", OK now your clearly out to fluff your own numbers, you're getting the paladin to stop attacking to recast protect everyone someone dies. Some of those same jokes refuse a little pick me up while raising 4 players, then ask for more MP, and you know that DPS healer would rather DPS and not hold back just cause "OH LOW ON MP, BETTER SAVE UP!" I'm talking about the group who'll go into savage at entry level and say who needs gear while struggling due to deficient DPS, an irrational fear of resources, consequently actual resource starvation, and maybe coordination issues, because they absolutely refuse to consider simple math, basic coordination, and ACTUAL willingness to do more than what you're used to. Turning what you say a POTENTIAL 4 minute fight into 9 or whenever the enrage is, and A9S plays the red light; green light game the least.

Last group I was with, MIN/MAX says let's regen during mini, MIN/MAX shouts turn it off during mini. That MIN/MAXer was a ninja who also asked me to give them TP at the same point of every A9S 20 times in a row with zero improvement, just before the second arm appears.

ALSO, funny how suddenly someone after my comment have been saying BRD is stronger than MCH, when I keep hearing for the longest time it was MCH. So which is it? He making something up on the fly or do I have another reason to not trust the MIN/MAXer I'm stuck with who NEVER shuts up about "WHAT THE TOP TEAMS PREFER"?

And one last thing. I never said Foe was a DPS lose, even though some people hate the cast time eating a GCD, which hurts their numbers to a degree. I said if the increase was that marginal, then you'd be better off getting on a stronger class if you care about the party numbers that much. After all I didn't say one caster and two weak healers for no reason. You know, if the increase is just 100 total DPS, and you replace the job with something 100+ DPS stronger and you never needed the regen, then no problem. If there's 100 more DPS to be had by doing more such as AoEs in a mob of trash near the boss, then do more. IMPROVE! Know the fight!

And yes they are that shallow, they only care about the damage when it comes to "MIN/MAX".