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Thread: Red Mage thread

  1. #31
    Player
    Maero's Avatar
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    Sep 2013
    Location
    Gridania
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    4,781
    Character
    I'shtola Maqa
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    Dancer Lv 90
    The question is also what position will it be in?
    Will they make it to outshine blm and smn or something in between.
    If it has not much utility, what will they do?
    Rydia actually makes good points and i would hope they have some sort of haste ability since chaining combos and the like
    (0)

  2. #32
    Player
    Powe's Avatar
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    Jan 2016
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    Guarding Etro's Throne with Lightning
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    728
    Character
    Hades Pluto
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 80
    Wait will red mage have a second arm, like you have to get different crystals? like Paladin with its shield or would it be like AST and their card thing
    (0)

  3. #33
    Player
    Jem's Avatar
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    Jul 2011
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    30
    Character
    Jam Bara
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Black Mage Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Powe View Post
    Wait will red mage have a second arm, like you have to get different crystals? like Paladin with its shield or would it be like AST and their card thing
    Highly doubtfull, it will most likely be a main hand combination weapon.
    (1)

  4. #34
    Player
    Cynfael's Avatar
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    Jun 2014
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    2,164
    Character
    Sacrilege Moonshadow
    World
    Hyperion
    Main Class
    Black Mage Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Duelle View Post
    The beauty of hybrids is that they have skills that are not used 100% of the time but are nice to have. PLD with Clemency comes to mind because Clemency was added under that same idea; the prohibitive MP cost plus the fact it's not easy to get it out while taking hits to the face make this quite evident. RDM could get a similar ability/spell that your normal gameplay discourages using but is there in case things go south. Of course, being able to cross-class Cure and have something that lets it scale with our stats to be stronger than a character with 0 MND while being well below WHM would be fine too.
    What concerns me about that line of thinking is that there isn't much appeal to a Job whose claim to fame is having abilities that are either incredibly niche or useful only when things go south. A DPS with a healing spell is such a sadly redundant thing in 99.9% of scenarios that I wouldn't want to see RDM celebrated as a "hybrid" when that really means "half-assed."

    To use SCH as an example of a hybrid Job (since it's probably the closest we have to one), it only works because dealing damage does not conflict with its primary function of healing. However, since only so much healing is required, healing actions most certainly conflict with the primary function of the DPS role. Assuming the actual healer isn't asleep at the wheel, there's no point at all to DPS using their GCDs to heal.

    Anyway, I really doubt that the devs would do this; they seem to understand that a DPS has to be able to deal damage first-and-foremost, so they'll probably keep the bloat of quasi-useless flavor abilities down to a minimum.
    (2)
    Last edited by Cynfael; 01-04-2017 at 12:32 PM.

  5. #35
    Player
    mosaicex's Avatar
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    Oct 2014
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    455
    Character
    Noyoyo Noyo
    World
    Typhon
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Powe View Post
    Wait will red mage have a second arm, like you have to get different crystals? like Paladin with its shield or would it be like AST and their card thing
    No, already confirmed that the Crystal medium and the Rapier are both considered one weapon.
    (2)

  6. #36
    Player
    Duelle's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    3,965
    Character
    Duelle Urelle
    World
    Diabolos
    Main Class
    Red Mage Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Cynfael View Post
    What concerns me about that line of thinking is that there isn't much appeal to a Job whose claim to fame is having abilities that are either incredibly niche or useful only when things go south.
    By your logic PLD shouldn't have Clemency in its current state, and skills that are not "useful" 100% of the time shouldn't exist. It's actually okay to have skills and spells that aren't useful all the time as long as a) they contribute to the thematics of the job in question and b) can serve some sort of purpose in overall function of the job.
    A DPS with a healing spell is such a sadly redundant thing in 99.9% of scenarios that I wouldn't want to see RDM celebrated as a "hybrid" when that really means "half-assed."
    It's worked in the past, and it would work again if SE chose to go that direction with RDM (sadly, they aren't).
    Anyway, I really doubt that the devs would do this; they seem to understand that a DPS has to be able to deal damage first-and-foremost, so they'll probably keep the bloat of quasi-useless flavor abilities down to a minimum.
    Having access to a healing spell wouldn't take away from RDM's DPS potential. Especially if you attach the used of the heal to a mechanic that costs the RDM DPS.

    Since I seem to need to bring this back every now and then, we have the Art of War mechanic. A proc that makes the next nuke or heal instant cast, and only procs from melee hits. The result is that as you hit things with your weapon, you get procs and decide how to use them. Use it to insta-nuke the target and keep up your DPS, or use the proc to toss a quick heal before returning to hitting the mob. Bonus being that the class that had this mechanic did not have severely neutered DPS compared to the other melee DPS, despite having heals AND having barriers that could be placed on party/raid members.

    As I've said, it works; I wouldn't be an advocate of it if it didn't.
    (3)
    Last edited by Duelle; 01-04-2017 at 09:57 PM.
    * The sad thing is that FFXIV turned RDM into a turret, and people think that's what it's supposed to be. It's supposed to combine sword and magic into something more, not spend the bulk of gameplay spamming spells and jump into melee for only 3 GCDs before scurrying back to the back line like good little casters.
    * Design ideas:
    Red Mage - COMPLETE (https://tinyurl.com/y6tsbnjh), Chemist - Second Pass (https://tinyurl.com/ssuog88), Thief - First Pass (https://tinyurl.com/vdjpkoa), Rune Fencer - First Pass (https://tinyurl.com/y3fomdp2)

  7. #37
    Player
    Cynfael's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
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    2,164
    Character
    Sacrilege Moonshadow
    World
    Hyperion
    Main Class
    Black Mage Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Duelle View Post
    Snip.
    Clemency is saved from being utterly useless simply because the class that has it is usually in the position of taking massive amounts of damage. Clemency is still completely unnecessary most of the time provided that the healer knows what they are doing, but it's not a total trash skill. Generally speaking, though, it tends to be better that the PLD continue to attack rather than stop to self-heal.

    True hybrids don't work in this game. Your opinion is your own, of course, and valid as far as that goes, but there's nothing in this particular game thus far that supports a true hybrid class being successful unless you want to consider SCH one.

    I've already covered how an oGCD action that happens to heal someone wouldn't be horrible (even if it most likely wouldn't be very useful), but I wouldn't want to see actions like that become the focus or theme of a DPS Job, because no one needs a healing DPS. That's more or less my point.
    (2)

  8. #38
    Player
    Madrone's Avatar
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    Aug 2013
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    101
    Character
    Madrone Damodred
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    Conjurer Lv 60
    No one needs a Healing DPS. But some degree of emergency self-healing or a spammable weak heal are still good utility for tanks and dps. If you can make yourself or someone else survive where they otherwise would have died, its totally worth having that cooldown or weak cross role spell. Not to mention there is solo stuff to do in this game too, and the ability to recover hp is the biggest factor in how well a job can solo.

    Second Wind, Bloodbath, Clemency, Thrill of Battle, Soul Eater, Mug, Life Surge, Cure/Physick. These are what non-healers can do to recover hp. I don't see any problem with taking up a skill slot, especially a cross role one for an emergency self-heal or a spammable weak healing spell. Going to ignore the tank skills for now, because tanks have more use for self-healing than dps do. I figure that its perfectly fine for utility to have a personal oGCD cooldown like Second Wind that does a decent amount of healing... say up to maybe 25% of your hp pool. Mug is too weak and should be adjusted. A spammable spell is a little different since you can use it on others and use it repeatedly (at a cost to DPS). I think that more like 10% of a hp pool should be the cap of effectiveness for something like that coming from a non-healer/tank. Functional, but not strong. Unfortunately, we're already at a point where it does less than 2% and its getting worse.

    The issue with Cure/Physick is that our hp pools get much bigger each ilvl and level cap increase, but MND stays the same for non-healer jobs, with just a tiny increase when the level cap goes up. It went from healing around 400 in 2.x when dps/healer hp pools were around 6k to healing around 530 in 3.0 when dps/healer hp pools are more like 20-22k. Its going to keep sliding into the realm of totally ineffective unless base levels of non-main attributes get an adjustment, jobs get specific actions or traits that improve it or change how it works, or non-main attributes start getting put on gear in small amounts. At level 70's max ilvl, I sort of expect a healer/dps to have around 70k hp and for Cure/Physick to heal for about 650 if no adjustments are made. That's like 0.8% of hp pool healed per cast, unacceptable. And the worst part is that there's synced low level content still being used, so you sort of have to devote the skill slot to it because in low levels its decently effective, even though in current level content its terrible.

    I've done some level 60 testing on BLM using Physick, so I'm using that as a guideline. 161/172 MND (base amount for 60 Midlander i260 BLM/SMN) heals around 530. 713 MND (Field Commander set + some MND accessories) heals around 2200. That's about as strong as it should get for a Caster. I would suggest that SE increase base MND of BLM and SMN to more like 550 and RDM and PLD should have more like 650 as a level 60 example- healing around 1600-1700 (BLM/SMN) and 2000 (RDM/PLD) for Cure/Physick. These jobs don't need to be capable of taking over healing duties or waste their DPS/threat potential on Healing, but if you're spending a slot for an off-roll utility skill like this it should be somewhat functional. It would help immensely with solo activities like potd, leves, and fating/questing in the open world. It'd help when a healer DC's in a dungeon until a new one pops in. It can help top you or someone else off when a boss jumps away. It'd help right after you or someone else gets raised or while a healer is hardcast raising someone. There are plenty of places to slide in a quick/weak heal as emergency/utility, some even with minimal DPS loss or in situations where dps doesn't matter as much as surviving does.
    (0)
    Last edited by Madrone; 01-06-2017 at 03:26 AM.

  9. #39
    Player
    Cynfael's Avatar
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    Jun 2014
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    2,164
    Character
    Sacrilege Moonshadow
    World
    Hyperion
    Main Class
    Black Mage Lv 80
    Yes, situational healing utility is desirable, I agree. What I mean is a DPS with too much of a focus on support or "off-healing" would be left on the bench in favor of a DPS whose abilities maximize damage.

    This is more of an academic discussion anyway, since RDM has been stated to be a "pure" DPS. I'm assuming that will mean something around the current standard of DPS utility skills.
    (0)

  10. #40
    Player
    Madrone's Avatar
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    Aug 2013
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    101
    Character
    Madrone Damodred
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    Conjurer Lv 60
    Yeah, I figure it'll most likely be right in line with the other dps it is most similar to... i.e. terrible Physick. It could have personal or party member shielding/mitigation (Phalanx) or hp drain attacks (Drain Blade) as well. There's a lot of general utility from built-in debuffs on attacks, cc spells, caster/healer debuffs, damage resistance debuffs, and then you have things like Battle Litany, Virus, Apocatastasis, Mantra, One-Ilm Punch, Trick Attack, Goad, and Shadewalker/Smokescreen as a guide to model new stuff on.

    A best case scenario healing kit would be a single utility healing spell and Raise, with optional selection of Stoneskin and Protect, but those not being worth-it choices most of the time. That's wishful thinking anyway. Regen, AoE heals, and high potency heals are most certainly off the table. I want to find a lot of recognizable RDM stuff in XIV's RDM, but being a DPS in this game is going to cut a lot of it out, possibly all of it as far as Healing goes.

    I still think Caster's MND needs to scale better with hp pools if their only healing is a spell like Physick, to at least keep its healing at 5-10% of their hp pool. Mug should be adjusted too.
    (1)
    Last edited by Madrone; 01-06-2017 at 03:43 AM.

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