Naoki Yoshida's Comment in Regard to Jump Potions/Boost Potions

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Soo what you are saying is, your personal threshold of P2W, extends in to hundreds of dollars? Please correct me If I am wrong.. I stand by what I said though.... your "opinion" or "definition" of what p2w is, doesn't, actually change what p2w is. You are just saying what it means to you... personally.... and that is perfectly ok, and I'm willing to accept that.

Sigh. I don't know how I could articulate this any better. I specifically said a consistent advantage where buying power is the most optimal solution. The number was merely an example. It's the consistency and optimization which determine pay to win. At least, in my opinion.

To give some FFXIV examples. Say our Relic weapon was upgraded each patch cycle and it was definitively BiS. The grind associated will take nearly three months, however you could buy the needed components from the mogstation. This is pay to win because by the time you've grinded it out, the weapon will be invalidated within a few weeks-- making the most optimal solution to always be spending money. Another example would be in Savage, if the Gobdip, Gobtwine and Gobcoat all had their drop rate reduced to 5%... but were made purchasable on the mogstation. You can't farm them per Savage loot rules, thus you have to either pray to the RNG gods or spend money.

It's that consistency and optimization that factor into what is pay to win. You're buying power, and you always have to in order to keep up.

[Imoen]

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I understand what you are getting at, but it doesn't change what this is. I'm not arguing there isn't shadier ways in which companies do the same thing. lol

That, is pay to win. You have no control over progression and the most optimal solution is to spend money.

Isn't this exactly, what the potion becomes years down the line? A non option for new players, the most optimal solution is to spend money? Black Desert is also a F2P game, and I expect that in a F2P game, but this is not, and that is kind of my whole gripe with the idea. If this was a f2p game, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

I'm going to lay it out, Square is building a single path up a mountain, and it seems like they want to keep going in that direction. They realize it is going to be a problem... so their "solution" is to sell people a work around or a shortcut. Right now, that is optional. Down the road, if they keep going the route they have been with the story being linear and requiring everything before it... it won't really be an optional potion for new players at some point if they hope to ever catch up to people.


Edit; I've removed most of the P2W definition debate stuff, as it really doesn't matter, people have their opinions on it, and that is fine. What p2w "means" or how it is "defined" is quite honestly unimportant to why I disagree with the potion. It is nothing more than a distraction, on which I engaged for some reason and that is my fault. While I still believe what I said to be true during that time, I simply don't want it being drug up again or being looked upon as a focal point of my argument since it really is not.

[Khalithar]

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I'm going to go ahead and say it, at this point the "pay to win" term has been thrown around so much towards so many different things in MMO's that the phrase has lost almost all meaning. We all have a different definition of what we consider "pay to win" nowadays. Do I consider the boost potion pay to win? Certainly not. I never considered leveling to the cap to be some grand accomplishment in a game.

To me pay to win is what they do in Rift where you can buy a full set of raid gear for cash, I consider that pay to win but there are a lot of people that don't as well because the raid gear they do sell for cash is one tier behind the current best in slot gear. So while it's certainly great gear it's by no means the best in slot and the people that do the most difficult content in the game will still always be one step ahead of you. I still consider it pay to win mind you, but I can actually see the merits of the argument for the people that really aren't against it so much since the gear is good but not the best.

I think it's fair to call the potions a cash grab, but I'm very skeptical of the "pay to win" claim. Not to mention the fact that he stated it will be levels behind what the old cap is. Let's just pretend for a moment that these potions were live now in their current iteration, what happens? Some new player joins the game, drops a ton of money and starts at level 50 with some 130 gear. I really don't see how that harms you if you've already got a 60 (or multiple 60's) and have already farmed for your gear. A person that buys this potion isn't suddenly going to be level 60 in full A12 savage mode gear with no effort put in whatsoever.

Edit: The most blatant pay to win examples I can think of (that I do believe we all can agree on) are in a few free to play FPS games where the best guns in the game can only be purchased with cash. But those very egregious examples are very few and far between.

[Imoen]

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Lol you are clearly not caught up.

I don't really care what peoples definitions of P2W are, you could call it a cash grab, call it whatever you want. I really don't care. If 2 players start at the same time, one buys a potion, the other does not, one player has an advantage over the other period. However you want to view that, or call it, or w/e. I don't care how big the gap is, I don't care if it doesn't effect me lol.

I have a problem with them side stepping the problem that they know they are going to have and charging people for it, on top of already buying the game, and having a subscription. Which you agree with, from what I understand.