Should Cleric Stance be disabled in party instances?

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Actually, they don't. They barely have to work at it in terms of threat unless they are significantly undergeared compared to their DPS and Healer.

TBF, in single target that's because except for DRK, tanks Max dps rotations do involve the use of aggro combos. Warrior deals the most damage by rotating their aggro combo with Storm's Eye, PLD needs to Savage Blade in order to Royal, and Shield swipe and CoS are both ocd abilities that deal damage and generate aggro so dealing more damage does in fact involve them generating extra aggro to some degree. The only exception is DRK, who doesn't want to use their aggro combo more than necessary.

It's a gross misrepresentation of the tank toolkit to say that their dps is irrelevant when so many of their highest dps combos and cd's revolve purely around dealing more dps and enmity. Arguably, DRK also teaches the player to push dps through it's own toolkit due to the presence of Blood Weapon, which isn't available in Grit.

For those questioning the relevance: This is just me highlighting the fact that tank dps very much feeds back into their primary purpose of aggro generation and how the toolkit emphasizes that aspect, something that's sorely lacking in regards to cleric stance.

[Cynfael]

It's a gross misrepresentation of the tank toolkit to say that their dps is irrelevant when so many of their highest dps combos and cd's revolve purely around dealing more dps and enmity. Arguably, DRK also teaches the player to push dps through it's own toolkit due to the presence of Blood Weapon, which isn't available in Grit.

It's a gross misrepresentation of what I or anyone else here has said to claim that the case is being made that tank DPS is irrelevant.

The point is that pushing optimal tank DPS goes well beyond the minimum required to maintain aggro. There is nothing in the game design that requires tanks to juggle their defensive and offensive stances and abilities to squeeze in as much damage as possible...unless we're going to say now that optimized tanks are simply carrying extra weight to make up for the rest of the party lacking in the DPS department? It's just as ridiculous here as when applied to the healer role.

Basically people need to stop trying to claim that tanks maximizing DPS output is somehow totally different than healers doing the same when neither job needs to hit more than a specific set of abilities to be minimally functional. Good players of both roles can and do maximize their kits.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Basically people need to stop trying to claim that tanks maximizing DPS output is somehow totally different than healers doing the same when neither job needs to hit more than a specific set of abilities to be minimally functional.

Unlike healer dps, main tank and off tank dps are both included and expected when content is tuned, so maximizing tank dps is clearly intended to some degree.

[Cleftobismal]

Unlike healer dps, main tank and off tank dps are both included and expected when content is tuned, so maximizing tank dps is clearly intended to some degree.

I would have to agree since they made the change in VIT to now affect tank damage. At the same time I wouldn't blame a tank for the lack of dps. The only time I'd be concerned about our tank is the inability to keep aggro off of the healer.

They may be a part of the dps check, but at that point if a tank was failing their dps, any good dps would pull the aggro non stop from the bosses. I learned the hard way that enmity modifiers alone are not enough to keep an aggro if the dps is over-tuned on buffs.


I will say I greatly appreciate a good tank that can damage. Typically in small content such as duties, I prefer a tank to be in dps stance over tank stance (At bosses only) if they can dish out the deeps to keep aggro because A) I can handle it as a healer and B) The fight goes oh soo much faster.

[CorvinusV]

...enmity modifiers alone are not enough to keep an aggro if the dps is over-tuned on...

The only time that would happen is if the tank's ilvl well under said DPS, in which case the argument is moot anyway. If you compare an equal lvl/ilvl tank and DPS, the tank simply has to be in tank stance and spamming their enmity combo to hold aggro, regardless of the DPS's buffs and output, they simply will not peel aggro off after enmity is established.
Look at the numbers for DRK for example: with Grit 2.7 multiplier, hard slash has 405 potency, Spinning Slash has 770, and
Power Slash 1650 potency (1950 with DA). At minimum that is 2,825 potency in 9 seconds. There isn't a DPS that will do a more potent consistent combo than that of a tank in defensive stance. And that's simply if the DRK is only doing their basic enmity rotation.
Tanks tend to lose aggro when they deviate from that rotation to either buff or maximize their DPS.

[VanilleFang]

snip

I have to ask.

Do you personally think it is okay for 1 of 4 members of a group to do nothing of worth for 90% of their time in said group while the other 3 are doing something of worth at all times?

See, if a healer consistently heals when someone gets hurt that still doesn't mean they are bringing anything of value to the team. You can easily get away with just throwing a Regen on your tank at the start of a boss fight and DPS until it runs out, or hold off healing that DPS at 70%. Healing does not mean you are always being useful. If you sit there and repeatedly cast Cure on a barely hurt tank you are useless and are bringing nothing of value to your team.

So, do you think it is okay for a healer to be worthless 90% of the time, because that's what it seems like. Outside very specific content, and some speed runs, healers can be incredibly lazy. Is that fair?

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Snip?

Personally, I couldn't care less, if I'm not dying. I don't know what the situation is with them, perhaps they don't enjoy an aggressive play style, perhaps they aren't comfortable dpsing with a tank they don't know. What pertinence does any of the above have to me? I'll still use my defensive cd's, take an aggressive stance as much as I feel comfortable with, and that's that. I'd be much more likely to vote kick if they let an easily prevented wipe happen while dpsing than if they never dpsed.

[VanilleFang]

snip

So you actually think it is okay for 1 player to be dead weight? Alright.

Seems weird that it's only okay if it's the healer though.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

So you actually think it is okay for 1 player to be dead weight? Alright.

Seems weird that it's only okay if it's the healer though.

I'll happily take a one minute longer duty with a healer that doesn't dps but keeps the party healthy over a healer that enjoys an aggravating dance a hairs breadth from death. There's nothing enjoyable about surviving on fumes, struggling to stay alive with last ditch clemencies/Bloodbath because the healer is more concern about his DPS meter then he is about actually doing his damn job.

[Lambdafish]

I'll happily take a one minute longer duty with a healer that doesn't dps but keeps the party healthy over a healer that enjoys an aggravating dance a hairs breadth from death. There's nothing enjoyable about surviving on fumes, struggling to stay alive with last ditch clemencies/Bloodbath because the healer is more concern about his DPS meter then he is about actually doing his damn job.

I don't think you understand the arguments towards healer DPS. I did Gubal hard yesterday as a SCH, and during the first boss I realised something. The PLD was in SwO and I was in cleric stance 95% of the fight. Do you know how much healing I did? Two lustrates. Now Imagine if I had only healed that fight, and not thrown out any DPS.

No, I'm not a superstar raid healer, in fact my healing is fairly mediocre and I play it safe a lot, but I know why healer DPS is important.