Should Cleric Stance be disabled in party instances?

[CorvinusV]

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I think your confusing what is and isn't necessity in tanking. Neither tanks nor healers are required to use all abilities to perform their role successfully.
Tanks do not need to max their DPS to maximize enmity gain, as maximizing DPS would take them out of their defensive stance, which reduces their enmity multiplier. It does however reduce the length of encounters at the expense of reducing the damage mitigation. You can google enmity charts to see the difference a tank's enmity gain is in/out of defensive stance—kudos to those who did all that leg work.
And as I said before, healers do not need to maximize their DPS to heal, however, "it is not a great leap of logic to think that" it does also reduce the length of encounters, which leads to less overall healing.
But to stay on topic, I do not believe cleric stance needs any adjustment. I think its working as the devs have always intended it to.

[Cynfael]

Incorrect. Healer dps is not vital for anything other than carrying bad dps.

Really? More of this?

And that continued nonsense about tank DPS and enmity when we all know that tanks need only enough enmity to ensure that they retain control. There is no "tanking" advantage to performing optimal stance swaps and DPS rotations when the tank can hold aggro just fine by doing little other than spamming the same enmity combo over and over while in their defensive stance. Just as there is no benefit to restoring HP beyond a player's maximum, there is no award for building a ludicrously huge lead on the enmity table.

Good tanks push DPS because they see the opportunity to play better and choose to take it. A healer who willfully ignores opportunities to DPS is a sad thing who wants to be lauded for successfully meeting bare minimum expectations in a game that is, for the most part, not at all challenging in terms of straight-up healing requirements.

Last I checked, "Heal Bot" was not a Job; there are still games out there for that for people who truly wish to be useless except when party members screw up.

[CorvinusV]

Incorrect. Healer dps is not vital for anything other than carrying bad dps. Unlike tanks, where dps feeds back into enmity, a core mechanic, and dps, where dps is the entire primary purpose, a core mechanic, healer dps has no interactions with any of the healers kit, making it, at best, an extra side mechanic, not a vital core mechanic. If healer dps actually interacted with the healers kit in some way, I could concede the point, however, as of now, healers have no mechanic wherein dealing more personal dps affects their healing toolkit.

Just a reminder, your original argument implied that a tank DPSing was a vital core mechanic in comparison to a healer's DPS; basically that a healer's DPS doesn't matter because they don't need enmity. Again, a tank does not need to maximize DPS—they can generate more enmity in defensive stance. As I said, neither tank or healer doing maximum DPS is vital to their core job, but DPS certainly does help both roles.

It's simply a matter of efficiency. If you want to play a tank most effectively, you can afford to stance dance to increase DPS. Same with healer.

[RiisWolf]

Snip

Yes the bigger the number the bigger the threat (flash is fueled by attack power and weapon strength so better gear will make it better). It's rare that a tank has less time to the boss than the DPS and Healer. Because Tanks need to be competent damage dealers to produce threat, naturally they're number 2 on the DPS list.
Looks like the DPS you've mentioned have some catching up to do if the MCH outscored them.

[Cynfael]

Because Tanks need to be competent damage dealers to produce threat...

Actually, they don't. They barely have to work at it in terms of threat unless they are significantly undergeared compared to their DPS and Healer.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Actually, they don't. They barely have to work at it in terms of threat unless they are significantly undergeared compared to their DPS and Healer.

TBF, in single target that's because except for DRK, tanks Max dps rotations do involve the use of aggro combos. Warrior deals the most damage by rotating their aggro combo with Storm's Eye, PLD needs to Savage Blade in order to Royal, and Shield swipe and CoS are both ocd abilities that deal damage and generate aggro so dealing more damage does in fact involve them generating extra aggro to some degree. The only exception is DRK, who doesn't want to use their aggro combo more than necessary.

It's a gross misrepresentation of the tank toolkit to say that their dps is irrelevant when so many of their highest dps combos and cd's revolve purely around dealing more dps and enmity. Arguably, DRK also teaches the player to push dps through it's own toolkit due to the presence of Blood Weapon, which isn't available in Grit.

For those questioning the relevance: This is just me highlighting the fact that tank dps very much feeds back into their primary purpose of aggro generation and how the toolkit emphasizes that aspect, something that's sorely lacking in regards to cleric stance.

[Cynfael]

It's a gross misrepresentation of the tank toolkit to say that their dps is irrelevant when so many of their highest dps combos and cd's revolve purely around dealing more dps and enmity. Arguably, DRK also teaches the player to push dps through it's own toolkit due to the presence of Blood Weapon, which isn't available in Grit.

It's a gross misrepresentation of what I or anyone else here has said to claim that the case is being made that tank DPS is irrelevant.

The point is that pushing optimal tank DPS goes well beyond the minimum required to maintain aggro. There is nothing in the game design that requires tanks to juggle their defensive and offensive stances and abilities to squeeze in as much damage as possible...unless we're going to say now that optimized tanks are simply carrying extra weight to make up for the rest of the party lacking in the DPS department? It's just as ridiculous here as when applied to the healer role.

Basically people need to stop trying to claim that tanks maximizing DPS output is somehow totally different than healers doing the same when neither job needs to hit more than a specific set of abilities to be minimally functional. Good players of both roles can and do maximize their kits.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Basically people need to stop trying to claim that tanks maximizing DPS output is somehow totally different than healers doing the same when neither job needs to hit more than a specific set of abilities to be minimally functional.

Unlike healer dps, main tank and off tank dps are both included and expected when content is tuned, so maximizing tank dps is clearly intended to some degree.

[Cleftobismal]

Unlike healer dps, main tank and off tank dps are both included and expected when content is tuned, so maximizing tank dps is clearly intended to some degree.

I would have to agree since they made the change in VIT to now affect tank damage. At the same time I wouldn't blame a tank for the lack of dps. The only time I'd be concerned about our tank is the inability to keep aggro off of the healer.

They may be a part of the dps check, but at that point if a tank was failing their dps, any good dps would pull the aggro non stop from the bosses. I learned the hard way that enmity modifiers alone are not enough to keep an aggro if the dps is over-tuned on buffs.


I will say I greatly appreciate a good tank that can damage. Typically in small content such as duties, I prefer a tank to be in dps stance over tank stance (At bosses only) if they can dish out the deeps to keep aggro because A) I can handle it as a healer and B) The fight goes oh soo much faster.

[VanilleFang]

I was trying to stay away from the whole "make the spells go off MND" crap, but this is my opinion.

Anyone who wants this is either lazy or doesn't understand balance. Let's make a healer use 1 stat of effect all their spells. Because that seems fair.

And really, CS does more than swap your INT and MND.