Opening as a Dark Knight?

[Gildarts]

Is it worth it though? You'll miss a huge part of litany, trick and hypercharge during your berserk. I have heard some good wars say that it's not worth holding berserk that long just for the third berserk cleave.

huh you won't be holding it for long, you will pop zerk after second heavy swing would still get 2FCs in trick and have most of buffs up

its highest hitting opener was it you on MT or OT

[aleph_null]

huh you won't be holding it for long, you will pop zerk after second heavy swing would still get 2FCs in trick and have most of buffs up

Yeah but litany and trick would only last until those first two cleaves, leaving the remaining 7 gcds in your berserk unbuffed, and hypercharge will only last halfway through your berserk. I just took a quick glance at the 5 fastest a12s clears on fflogs, 4 out of the 5 wars pop berserk around their first 3-4 gcds, and only one of them pop berserk after doing 2 combos in unchained (technically one of the 4 wars did a berserk triple cleave opener without unchained though, so we can rule that one out). Popping berserk earlier sacrifices the third cleave, but it won't be completely gone since you'll do it anyway after the berserk window, so it's a loss of 250 potency (excluding maim/eye), but you gain like 4 more berserk'd gcds under litany and trick.

I hope someone can clarify the math here. I was under the impression that holding berserk until after your second combo (third heavy swing) is not worth it if you have drg/nin/mch, but I'm willing to be proven wrong.

[Gildarts]

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nope

you will be able to land 2fc plus butcher combo.

again you probably mistaken this opener with 7 gcds one, this one require Infuriate>wait30 sec raw or veng then pull around 10sec or so.

[SpookyGhost]

nope

you will be able to land 2fc plus butcher combo.

again you probably mistaken this opener with 7 gcds one, this one require Infuriate>wait30 sec raw or veng then pull around 10sec or so.

There's some disadvantages to the 3x FC MT opener. Mainly that you'll need to delay Berserk by 4-5 GCDs meaning that, like aleph_null said, your TA window will be full of non-Berserk'd GCDs. On top of that by delaying Berserk you're also losing potential aggro generation, which could come back to haunt your DRK later. An even more important point, though, is that you're completely wasting RI or Vengeance as a defensive CD by popping it pre-pull. You're also delaying RI/Vengeance until after both FCs, this is especially harmful for Vengeance as now you're in a situation where you either need to have the WAR as MT for an even longer period of time (cutting into Reprisal and LB proc chance) or you have to swap and waste a bunch of Berserk'd Vengeance reflects.

Personally I'm a fan of this opener:

[Unchained] -> Tomahawk/Overpower -> [Foresight + Awareness] -> HS -> [Brutal Swing + Bloodbath] -> Maim -> [IR + RI] -> Eye -> [Berserk + Vengeance] -> HS -> SS -> [Equilibrium] -> BB -> [Deliverance] -> HS -> FC -> [Infuriate] -> FC -> Maim -> Eye -> Fracture -> [Pacify]

e: Should also mention that this is assuming we're using Unchained, if we forego Unchained then your TA alignment is better (since you're doing the standard 50s OT opener as MT) but you're also losing a ton of aggro (which means more PS), Defiance's HP buffer, and Equilibrium's heal.

[aleph_null]

nope

you will be able to land 2fc plus butcher combo.

again you probably mistaken this opener with 7 gcds one, this one require Infuriate>wait30 sec raw or veng then pull around 10sec or so.

I thought we were talking about the unchained opener, I guess that was my bad. But if you want the aggro lead I'd sacrifice one berserk'd cleave for unchained. Not to mention berserk'd equilibrium can probably save a healer gcd or two during the opener.

This is what I thought you were talking about: Unchained > Tomahawk > Eye combo > Block combo > HS > Berserk > etc.

[Unchained] -> Tomahawk/Overpower -> [Foresight + Awareness] -> HS -> [Brutal Swing + Bloodbath] -> Maim -> [IR + RI] -> Eye -> [Berserk + Vengeance] -> HS -> SS -> [Equilibrium] -> BB -> [Deliverance] -> HS -> FC -> [Infuriate] -> FC -> Maim -> Eye -> Fracture -> [Pacify]

e: Should also mention that this is assuming we're using Unchained, if we forego Unchained then your TA alignment is better (since you're doing the standard 50s OT opener as MT) but you're also losing a ton of aggro (which means more PS), Defiance's HP buffer, and Equilibrium's heal.

Wait, how do you have unchained at the beginning, infuriate in the opener as well as RI+Vengeance? XD

[Gildarts]

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you are wrong dude, you will land the 2FCs and entire butcher combo in TA so you hardly lose anything.

as i mentioned hate will be close thats why in speed runs you need nin shade and as for CDS for busters you hardly need them, example A12S you will only need holmgang for heart+cleave and likely second one to be skip if the PT DPS is good if not, drk should have it by that time to either LD or w/e

you can check rushers videos at least they are out and you will see what i mean ;o

[Gildarts]

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well my bad im so bad at explaining i guess ;3

[aleph_null]

well my bad im so bad at explaining i guess ;3

Nah it was definitely my mistake, I need to see an optician soon.

even with war pulling he can do 3FC opener, thats what most top groups do, they only have Defiance for tomahawk or overpower hate would be close however its best overall DPS for MT/OT, also would require nin shade ;3

Welp anyway back on topic, I think losing one fell cleave for unchained might be worth it compared to the dps gain of the co-tank. Checking the fflogs upload of the fastest a12s clear in my server, the drk only does exactly 1 power slash on the boss during the whole fight after the war pulls with unchained, that's pretty awesome for such a long fight.

[SpookyGhost]

you are wrong dude, you will land the 2FCs and entire butcher combo in TA so you hardly lose anything.

If you don't use Unchained, you're... sort of correct. TA would have to come up exactly when you used the first FC for it to line up with both your FCs and BB, and I feel like 99% of NINs have it up way before then. However, you will get 2x FC under TA. But as I explained you lose enmity, Defiance cushion, and Equilibrium.

as i mentioned hate will be close thats why in speed runs you need nin shade and as for CDS for busters you hardly need them, example A12S you will only need holmgang for heart+cleave and likely second one to be skip if the PT DPS is good if not, drk should have it by that time to either LD or w/e

A12S is a specific fight where you only need to survive til you Holmgang, after which point you will only take like an auto or two because Alex decides to Preys, stack circle, 2 AOEs, and then the expanded floor circles. There is essentially no damage on the tank past the cleave -> tank buster -> cleave bit. On top of this, the boss jumps after a certain point which means for the opening of the fight you only need to maintain enough enmity to not lose it to DPS/healers for the part where the boss is actually around. This, however, isn't the case for every fight, so in any case where your DRK will have to do more PS than it would otherwise have to, using Unchained is better.

Wait, how do you have unchained at the beginning, infuriate in the opener as well as RI+Vengeance? XD

Yeah, sorry, posted that as soon as I woke up and had a feeling I messed up somewhere in it. Second FC shouldn't be there, and Vengeance + Berserk / RI + IR should be swapped. Alternatively you can use RI to extend and get off 2x FC, but you'll lose RI mitigation in your opener so it largely depends on the fight. You're essentially trading the extra potency from the 2nd FC for Unchained's enmity, which imo will come out as a gain if you can get rid of 1~2 PS uses over the course of the entire fight.

Speaking of that I'd say that openers, in general, depend on the fight. It's very hard to say where each CD should be placed, who should be pulling, what external healer/DPS CDs you have access to, etc etc. As a general rule I'd say that WAR pulling is a helpful way to completely get rid of any enmity problems as well as completely get rid of needing to heal the MT for the opening of the fight. There are, however, cases where a DRK pulling could be better - such as any fight that needs Path up ASAP, as well as potentially Reprisal. But that is speaking on progressing on fights, which is a whole different world from farming/speedrunning. Anyway you basically just want to think about your group comp and what will net you the highest gDPS if we're talking about speedruns/farming which will always be the WAR pulling no matter what the opener is.

[Amagiri]

What about for a fight like A11S? That's the fight that we're doing right now. When do you guys think we should tank swap?

Additionally I talked about it to the rest of my static and they all seem adamant about trying it with me MT opening as Dark Knight, so I guess we'll be doing that.. ^^;;

I tried looking up some fflogs and there's quite the mixture of Dark Knights that open and those that don't. There's also a lot more PoVs of Dark Knights MTing by pulling. Is there a reason for this?