Opening as a Dark Knight?

[Amagiri]

Hi everyone! Amagiri Yanagi here, and I have a question about openers in general as tanks.

I'm a Dark Knight and my friend is a Warrior. The way we've been pulling so far is having the Warrior start off the pull and then we tank swap where I become the MT shortly after openers. Our Black Mage is disputing this method, saying that I should start off the pull and that the Warrior should just remain the OT the whole time, and that this would net us more damage overall in comparison. I don't know which is actually better, so I was wondering if you all could help me with this issue.

My concerns in particular fell to enmity, loss of mana, and DPS, by having me open. Our War tank is capable of switching into Deliverance pretty quickly even while acting as the temporary MT during openers, and when we tank swap, the advantage I feel is greater from doing that than the DPS lost from our WAR tank doing an Unchained into 3 Fel Cleave opener rather than a 4 Fel Cleave opener.

[FallenWings]

Your black mage is silly and seems to be giving advice on classes he has no clue about.

Best raid gain is always WAR pull.

The war loses 1 fell cleave and 5-7% DPS loss for the first 15-20 seconds for the fattest aggro start and the DRK/PLD getting 20%+ Damage for the first 30 seconds.

Remove these silly notions of always MT/OT. You work with your co-tank to maximize defensive CD uptime and maximum DPS output from both.
End of story.

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Warrior loses a smidgen of dps at the beginning to Unchained opener, farm up a ridiculous aggro lead, and let the MT sit in dps stance for a ridiculously long period of time. I'm not sure how a tiny dps loss from one outweighs the dps gain from the whole.

[SyzzleSpark]

If you can pull it off, you can top the Unchained opener if you pull out of Grit, but only if you have a NIN that is willing to Shadewalker you at least twice. You may have to Powerslash a few extra times but that loss is paltry compared to having Grit on.

If you have no NIN or your healers don't like the idea, then yeah I'd default to the Unchained opener. Or your WAR could just pull in Deliverance with Shadewalker since BB is part of their DPS rotation.

Basically you take a big loss pulling in Grit, your WAR takes a small loss Unchained pulling, and you both take almost no loss at all with a Gritless pull. You'll just need an industrious NIN to pick up that slack with Shadewalker and possibly Smokescreen.

[SpookyGhost]

Pros of WAR pulling with Unchained:
- Highest possible enmity lead over DPS and healers
- Gain a BB combo (+20 potency)
- Gain Berserk'd Vengeance procs (+50 potency for every hit you take while under the effect of Vengeance)
- Gain healer GCDs due to popping all defensive and self healing CDs
- DRK will only have to do 1 PS the entire fight, barring tank swaps (possibly 0 PS if you Shade the DRK during the swap)

Cons:
- Lose a Berserk'd FC (bare in mind that since FC is on the GCD, it merely replaces your 9th Berserk'd GCD and isn't a flat 500 potency loss)
- Delay Reprisal
- Possibly lose a Low Blow proc depending on RNG

Pros of DRK pulling, with or without Grit:
- Reprisal up ASAP
- 3x FC WAR opener
- possibly proc Low Blow

Cons of DRK pulling:
- No more Berserk'd Vengeance procs
- Actually takes damage and therefore will cost healers DPS GCDs
- Have to PS more
- Lose BB combo

WAR pulling w/o Unchained means they lose Equilibrium and the extra cushion health, which could potentially mean lost healer GCDs depending on the encounter.

If anyone can think of any other pros/cons lmk.

[Berzullha]

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with this thread but this is legit the first time I've heard about this. Have people been doing this for a long time or is this a new strat to 3.5? Also when the DRK provokes does he stay out of grit and when exactly is the swap supposed to take place?

[Sarcatica]

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with this thread but this is legit the first time I've heard about this. Have people been doing this for a long time or is this a new strat to 3.5? Also when the DRK provokes does he stay out of grit and when exactly is the swap supposed to take place?

That's already known for the 3.x. Gordias had WAR pull tanking A1S and A4S at the very least. DRK normally can voke once WAR is in pacification, as long as WAR isnt using BB combo, the drk should have enough aggro lead. Or voke Power Slash after Berserk is out.

The main reason for this sudden change was 2.x has PLD spamming RoH because that's the only combo worth mentioning. When lvl60 introduced more skills to do damage, that's when WAR pulling becomes way more viable.

[Sarcatica]

For Creator Savage alone, 10-12 top speedruns feature WAR pulling first. If you wonder how those DRKs can reach 1.7-1.8k dps in A10S or 1.5-1.6k dps in A11S, those are the results of having WAR pull for aggro reason. PLD/DRK loses out more from having to pull first, albeit doesn't do much if you just want to clear.

[Gildarts]

.

even with war pulling he can do 3FC opener, thats what most top groups do, they only have Defiance for tomahawk or overpower hate would be close however its best overall DPS for MT/OT, also would require nin shade ;3

[aleph_null]

even with war pulling he can do 3FC opener, thats what most top groups do, they only have Defiance for tomahawk or overpower hate would be close however its best overall DPS for MT/OT, also would require nin shade ;3

Is it worth it though? You'll miss a huge part of litany, trick and hypercharge during your berserk. I have heard some good wars say that it's not worth holding berserk that long just for the third berserk cleave.