What Skills Should Become Role Specific.

[CosmicKirby]

Speaking from a MCH perspective:

-Second Wind is a Must, Mch is the only class/job in the game with literally no option to heal themselves except for a potion.

-Invigorate being baseline opens up the few DPS classes that don't have it to culling their buttons a bit, gaining more space for new things.

-I feel Raging strikes should either become universal, or they need to consider separating the DPS roles as they are (Melee, Ranged, Magic)
- As is, making Raging Strikes and Hawk's Eye baseline would be a massive dps increase for some jobs, whereas others (Like MCH) Would be getting no dps increase at all for the exchange and would have to be compensated for elsewhere.

- On a similar note, why are Featherfoot and Keen Flurry here?
- On another related note: Why do SMN, BRD, and MCH have no defensive options? (Sans the aforementioned Keen Flurry) Combine this with BRD and MCH having mediocre defense for both magical and physical, whereas every other job has at least one being relatively high.

-Add a new skill that let's all physical dps Sprint without burning TP, you can make it less effective even, but it's just a boon that Casters have that makes little to no sense to keep exclusive to them. (This stands out TERRIBLY on MCH, as it is their sole option for a movement skill, as Blank is supposed to replace Repelling Shot)

[HyoMinPark]

I don't think that job specific skills should be available for any sort of role sharing.

Example: Blood Price. While both WAR and PLD use MP (mostly for flash, but also for Clemency for PLD), I do not think this justifies them being able to use Blood Price. Their MP management is minimal at best, where as DRK requires constant awareness when it comes to their MP, and a lot of their attack skills (examples: Unleash, Unmend, Dark Arts, Dark Passenger, Abysmal Drain) require MP usage. I just can't find any justification in sharing Blood Price with the other tanks. And, I know people dislike using Lore as a reason for restriction, but Blood Price does not at all fit in with the lore of a PLD, and very loosely with WAR. Plus, both WAR and PLD can be affected by MP refreshes (Ewer or Mage's), where as DRK has to turn off Darkside (and effectively lose their most valuable and potent skills) to be affected. Hence, why Blood Price is a DRK's best friend when it comes to MP management.

With regards to AST, I really wish they would allow AST to cross class Eye for an Eye. I never understood why AST can cross class Protect, Stoneskin, Cleric Stance, Swiftcast, etc., but not Eye for an Eye, where as WHM is able to, and I believe BLM can as well (I don't normally play BLM, so correct me if I'm wrong).

Can't say much for MCH since I haven't touched that job. I do think it's silly that they can't cross-class Second Wind, where as their support counterpart BRD can (but perhaps that's because obtaining BRD also requires a level 15 pugilist).

I am all for roles sharing core skills/buffs (Provoke, Swiftcast, Cleric Stance, Invigorate, Second Wind, Raging Strikes, Quelling Strikes, Blood for Blood, etc.), but I can't really get behind them sharing skills that are job (read: JOB, not CLASS) specific. Because then, why bother having the variety of different jobs if they can just use a bunch of skills from another job? Idk. That's how I see it anyways. I'm sure others have differing opinions. :3

[Shurrikhan]

I don't think that job specific skills should be available for any sort of role sharing.

Example: Blood Price. While both WAR and PLD use MP (mostly for flash, but also for Clemency for PLD), I do not think this justifies them being able to use Blood Price.

With regards to AST, I really wish they would allow AST to cross class Eye for an Eye. I never understood why AST can cross class Protect, Stoneskin, Cleric Stance, Swiftcast, etc., but not Eye for an Eye, where as WHM is able to, and I believe BLM can as well (I don't normally play BLM, so correct me if I'm wrong).

I don't think there was any info given on job skills becoming cross-class-able.

AST lacks E4E because at the moment each job gets only two class cross-class sources, and E4E was less a loss than Swiftcast (THM) or Cleric Stance and Stoneskin (CNJ). It's the same for Machinist; if you want Second Wind, you lose Blood for Blood and Invigorate or Raging Strikes, Quelling Strikes, and Hawkeye. We may see that limitation changed out to separate affinities on each ability, rather than source (sharing) classes, where the Additional Skills UI is no longer sorted by class but instead shows all Additional Skills the class or job may equip all at once (along with where to get them), but for now the two xClasses per job system is the reason.

Speaking from a MCH perspective:

-Second Wind is a Must, Mch is the only class/job in the game with literally no option to heal themselves except for a potion.

-Invigorate being baseline opens up the few DPS classes that don't have it to culling their buttons a bit, gaining more space for new things.

-I feel Raging strikes should either become universal, or they need to consider separating the DPS roles as they are (Melee, Ranged, Magic)
- As is, making Raging Strikes and Hawk's Eye baseline would be a massive dps increase for some jobs, whereas others (Like MCH) Would be getting no dps increase at all for the exchange and would have to be compensated for elsewhere.

- On a similar note, why are Featherfoot and Keen Flurry here?
- On another related note: Why do SMN, BRD, and MCH have no defensive options? (Sans the aforementioned Keen Flurry) Combine this with BRD and MCH having mediocre defense for both magical and physical, whereas every other job has at least one being relatively high.

-Add a new skill that let's all physical dps Sprint without burning TP, you can make it less effective even, but it's just a boon that Casters have that makes little to no sense to keep exclusive to them. (This stands out TERRIBLY on MCH, as it is their sole option for a movement skill, as Blank is supposed to replace Repelling Shot)

- Even if, say, the MCH had the highest raid dps contribution of any job in the game? Which it does in an all-physical comp? I'm not saying that its potential contribution should in any way forbid that, but let's go ahead and consider that it's about the least painful cross-class cut-off it could have, and that the job is technically doing fine without it. What mechanically forced use of Second Wind could a shield not cover?

- Making a skill baseline has zero effect on button count. It just means you get and equip the necessary skill earlier. If the cross-class pool is not reduced from 5 to 4 to compensate, which would slightly reduce your options in the few cases in which Invigorate would not have been necessary, then it actually increases the button count, by one.

- At present, melee have access to two skills which are arguably more "melee-like" in that they recharge faster (albeit with a more minor benefit), and one of them has an element of risk.

- It would be a massive dps increase (by which I really mean a little over a 2.2% increase) only to those who do not currently have access to it. If you mean "passive" then it would be a dps loss to the otherwise stacked use of the ability in the high-dynamics jobs who can presently use it.

- Because they're viable options, in irregular situations, to the few jobs who can use them. They could be a lot better.

- One because it's a caster with a floating rock pet that provides little personal synergy. The second has three defensives. And the last because of the 2 cross-class classes limitation.

- Just revise Sprint itself. To make a new skill just to make using Sprint feasible would be to take up two button slots for the effect of one, and without even the potentially enjoyable button-flow of other redundant skills like Power Surge.

[Ametrine]

Looking at the OP, I wouldn't want Synastry to go into the role skill pool as it's heavily tied to AST as their most powerful heal. It just feels like you'd be taking a key part of AST's kit away when the other healers have their own high powered heals.


Otherwise, I think all DPS should be given a Quelling Strikes, Blood for Blood, and Raging Strikes, all tanks get a Provoke, all TP dependant classes get Imvigorate, all Healers gain Divine Seal, all mages gain Swiftcast, and everyone gain some kind of haste CD.


That's all I can think of.

[HyoMinPark]

There was nothing about job skills become cross-class skills. Just that the OP suggested taking Blood Price and Reprisal from
DRKs and making them shared among tanks. While I understand they were trying to be fair and have each tank contribute something to the pool of shared skills, I still disagree about job skills being shared, and question the use Blood Price would have for the other two tanks. That's where I was going with my statement. Not saying that SE said job skills could be chosen among the shared skills.

[CosmicKirby]

- Even if, say, the MCH had the highest raid dps contribution of any job in the game? Which it does in an all-physical comp? I'm not saying that its potential contribution should in any way forbid that, but let's go ahead and consider that it's about the least painful cross-class cut-off it could have, and that the job is technically doing fine without it. What mechanically forced use of Second Wind could a shield not cover?

There are times where being able to heal my self even slightly more than a potion would have saved me from unavoidable damage. Given my relatively low defenses as a MCH and complete inability to heal compared to others, WHAT is the point? Not 'why' can't I heal, that answer is technically obvious. Why was the decision made to not give MCH the option in particular? They could have easily combined numerous skills together thus giving them the 'space' to give them their own self heal as a job skill, they chose not to.
Honestly, I want to see Hypercharge Overhauled significantly. Most of the MCH's power comes from it, and it's a binary boring ability to use. It's so powerful that it prevents the rest of their kit from being too useful/good/interesting because otherwise MCH would be too good.

- Making a skill baseline has zero effect on button count. It just means you get and equip the necessary skill earlier. If the cross-class pool is not reduced from 5 to 4 to compensate, which would slightly reduce your options in the few cases in which Invigorate would not have been necessary, then it actually increases the button count, by one.

I think you misunderstand. Baseline, I meant to make it baseline so as to avoid having to cross class it in the firstplace. I think a large rework to TP functionality in general would go a long way to differentiating the physical dps classes. Rather than MNK being the sole job to worry about TP through a method other than Invigorate.

- At present, melee have access to two skills which are arguably more "melee-like" in that they recharge faster (albeit with a more minor benefit), and one of them has an element of risk.

I don't think just adding the cross class skills as is would help the system feel rewarding or interesting. If 4/5 slots are just obvious, the system may as well not even exist.

- It would be a massive dps increase (by which I really mean a little over a 2.2% increase) only to those who do not currently have access to it. If you mean "passive" then it would be a dps loss to the otherwise stacked use of the ability in the high-dynamics jobs who can presently use it.

I think it was obvious that I meant this would effect the classes that do not already have them. MCH is basically forced to cross class three big DPS cooldowns for their rotation, B4B, Raging Strikes, and Hawk's Eye, making any of those role specific would be no boon to them, they already have them, that's the problem with these skills for MCH.

- Because they're viable options, in irregular situations, to the few jobs who can use them. They could be a lot better.

In raids the most likely thing to kill a DPS player is unavoidable magic damage. These cooldowns do not mitigate this type of damage at all. Shade Shift has a practical application for multiple situations, Featherfoot and Keen Flurry do not.

- One because it's a caster with a floating rock pet that provides little personal synergy. The second has three defensives. And the last because of the 2 cross-class classes limitation.

SMN doesn't use Titan in any content that can be considered difficult. (And I think anything worth complaining about with the system as is, only begins to reach that point in difficult content)
BRD has the 2 that are mostly useless, and Second Wind which is nice but is barely a defensive cooldown,
MCH is the main problem here.

Why do no other DPS classes have abilities like Fist of Stone, Mana Wall, Shade Shift, or even Apocatastasis? Actual defensive options that you can use in response to damage? Instead Square thinks stuff like Feint or Haymaker are somehow acceptable, despite being literally worthless in most content, as things are immune to slow.

- Just revise Sprint itself. To make a new skill just to make using Sprint feasible would be to take up two button slots for the effect of one, and without even the potentially enjoyable button-flow of other redundant skills like Power Surge.

Eh, yeah, on second thought just revise sprint.

- Even if, say, the MCH had the highest raid dps contribution of any job in the game? Which it does in an all-physical comp? I'm not saying that its potential contribution should in any way forbid that, but let's go ahead and consider that it's about the least painful cross-class cut-off it could have, and that the job is technically doing fine without it. What mechanically forced use of Second Wind could a shield not cover?

Yes, Hypercharge is pretty much the single most powerful, overbuffed, absurdly useful skill in the game in some raid comps.

[Sylkis]

A lot of stuff

The intention was to remove duplicate skills with the same effect, that's why rampart, cure and raise etc are there.
Not only to remove bloat but if a new job came in they would probably need that skill.

For starters, both PLD and DRK already have a Rampart equivalent

This would be the exact reason why it should be a role skill - Remove rampart and shadowskin and give all the tanks rampart

Cure - all three healing jobs currently have a healing spell learned below level 5 with a heal potency of 400 (equivalent to Cure); however, the MP cost, modifying traits, and level at which the spell is learned differ from job to job.

Keep the traits to the corresponding jobs, keep Cure to the base role.

[Shurrikhan]

There are times where being able to heal my self even slightly more than a potion would have saved me from unavoidable damage. Given my relatively low defenses as a MCH and complete inability to heal compared to others, WHAT is the point? Not 'why' can't I heal, that answer is technically obvious. Why was the decision made to not give MCH the option in particular? They could have easily combined numerous skills together to give them their own self heal, they chose not to.

You can have 2 of 3 physical dps source classes. No more.
Archer: Raging Strikes, Hawk Eye, Quelling Strikes
Dragoon: Invigorate, Blood for Blood, Keen Flurry
Monk: Mantra, Featherfoot, Haymaker, Second Wind

Do you really want to sacrifice either of the above sets for an extra, long-CD potion?

The decision by which you did not get access to Second Wind was obvious, and MCHs all around would be in far greater uproar if it wasn't the choice made.
The decision to limit each job to two classes' worth of additional skills, however, is less obvious.

I think you misunderstand. Baseline, I meant to make it baseline so as to avoid having to cross class it in the firstplace.

That can still go in any of three ways. Do you mean it's baked into each job passively, by new native mechanics or versions of the skill, or that each job simply gets the skill automatically?

I think a large rework to TP functionality in general would go a long way to differentiating the physical dps classes. Rather than MNK being the sole job to worry about TP through a method other than Invigorate.

I don't think just adding the cross class skills as is would help the system feel rewarding or interesting.

I never said just adding cross-class skills would make any system more interesting; though I'm not of the opinion it wouldn't, either. I implied that giving Raging Strikes to all classes would only further homogenize them, and a reason for why the current cross-class skills for melee are limited to Blood for Blood and Internal Release rather than the caster-standard Raging Strikes and Quelling Strikes.

If 4/5 slots are just obvious, the system may as well not even exist.

Roughly 4/5 are obvious for standard content. By the time you do anything less standard, that number may well decrease. In either case, that still leaves at least one worthwhile option. So why remove that too?

In raids the most likely thing to kill a DPS player is unavoidable magic damage. These cooldowns do not mitigate this type of damage at all. Shade Shift has a practical application for multiple situations, Featherfoot and Keen Flurry do not.

What makes Shade Shift practical is that it's reliable mitigation. Shade Shift CANNOT block magic either. It absorbs physical damage equal to 20% of the caster's health, a bit more on average than an untraited Second Wind but without the ability to crit.

Why do no other DPS classes have abilities like Fist of Stone, Mana Wall, Shade Shift, or even Apocatastasis? Actual defensive options that you can use in response to damage? Instead Square thinks stuff like Feint or Haymaker are somehow acceptable, despite being literally worthless in most content, as things are immune to slow.

Because the developers determined that they carry enough utility without those personal survival tools. Simple as that.

And for what classes are you weighing the use of Feint and Haymaker? Dragoon, Feint's source class, has a native defense buff vs. physical damage comparable to Fists of Earth. Feint actually sees the most use from ranged classes, for which it's far more useful than on its source class during WM/GB. The only other two classes with access have said Fists of Earth and Shade Shift. Haymaker is generally a waste of space, but it useful to Bards on gaze-heavy fights like Thordan for an empowered and instant low-TP attack. Neither is being sold as a defensive, especially given that anyone who has access to either also has access to either Keen Flurry or Featherfoot and Second Wind (the reliable one, but with no effect on max eHP).

[JunseiKei]

I'd love to see Stoneskin II become a role skill. Considering you can only use it outside of combat, there's no point to locking it behind white mage exclusively.

Synastry, however, I don't think should become a role skill, nor should lightspeed. Considering the reason you get the skill according to job quests, it makes no sense for the other healers to have it, plus it's one of two buffs that really set astrologian apart from the other healers. Excluding the card system. I don't want the healers to be just the same thing with differently named skills. Otherwise, make the fairy accessible to all healers plus their subskills. (I'm not actually saying to do that; just a comparison to how silly it is.) Astrologian is also very self contained, even taking disable from astrologian upsets the balance between the three current healers.

Adding certain skills, as listed by the OP, make certain classes incredibly over powered. IE: Barrage added to machinist because of roles; machinist will become the superior ranged class because of how it will stack with Wildfire. Wildfire is essentially a machinist barrage. Yet, bard cannot pick up anything that would equate to that same amount of damage. Reassemble is good, but it is not barrage + wildfire good. A warrior with raw intuition would have incredible reprisal procs, while dark knight loses something that makes it unique.

Classes should still be diverse with what they have, with role skills becoming things that are simply necessary to accomplish a fight. Not because that skill looks cool or would be useful to have.

TL;DR: Please keep the overall class power balance in mind when speculating or suggesting what skills 'should' become role skills.

[Shurrikhan]

Classes should still be diverse with what they have, with role skills becoming things that are simply necessary to accomplish a fight. Not because that skill looks cool or would be useful to have.

TL;DR: Please keep the overall class power balance in mind when speculating or suggesting what skills 'should' become role skills.

Quoted for truth and wisdom.