Should Cleric Stance be disabled in party instances?

[Masekase_Hurricane]

No without Cleric Stance I would be standing around doing nothing for half the fight. Although I don't think any healers should of needed Cleric Stance in the first place, as our damage should of come directly from our MND stat instead of INT.

Right now, I feel like in cleric stance, I can dps more than the casual dps, which means I am fulfilling two roles, healer AND dps. Which is not the intention, I believe.

Tank also fills two roles and can tank and dps if anything I would like all classes to be a bit more flexible with other roles.

[8bitbadguy]

No!!! Don't take away my cleric stance! That would make playing a healer so boring. I would have absolutely nothing to do between heals.

Why are so many of you on the forums so stuck on the idea of healers only healing and nothing else? That's fine if that's how you want to play, but a lot of us choose to use cleric stance because it makes the class more exciting.

[Keramory]

No without Cleric Stance I would be standing around doing nothing for half the fight. Although I don't think any healers should of needed Cleric Stance in the first place, as our damage should of come directly from our MND stat instead of INT.



Tank also fills two roles and can tank and dps if anything I would like all classes to be a bit more flexible with other roles.

I think a big issue within itself is healers are standing around not doing much if it wasn't for DPS. They should be given more reasons to heal...

Dont get me wrong I'm not saying healers shouldn't DPS, but clearly theres an issue when the main role of a job isn't being fulfilled a majority of the time. We're not healers at that point, we're Red Mages / Supports.

[Masekase_Hurricane]

I think a big issue within itself is healers are standing around not doing much if it wasn't for DPS. They should be given more reasons to heal...

Dont get me wrong I'm not saying healers shouldn't DPS, but clearly theres an issue when the main role of a job isn't being fulfilled a majority of the time. We're not healers at that point, we're Red Mages / Supports.

Not an issue at all WHM has always been able to heal and dps in the single player games. But yes WHM is healer and support that's why you have Protect/Stoneskin etc. If going to remove clerics then remove holy/gravity/Ruin and dots and change class quests to healing only and be able to kill mobs only by hitting with your weapon.

You have all these skills available why play half a job ?

[FunkyBunch]

Not an issue at all WHM has always been able to heal and dps in the single player games. But yes WHM is healer and support that's why you have Protect/Stoneskin etc. If going to remove clerics then remove holy/gravity/Ruin and dots and change class quests to healing only and be able to kill mobs only by hitting with your weapon.

You have all these skills available why play half a job ?

Hurr Durr, cuz the icon is green!

[Keramory]

Not an issue at all WHM has always been able to heal and dps in the single player games. But yes WHM is healer and support that's why you have Protect/Stoneskin etc. If going to remove clerics then remove holy/gravity/Ruin and dots and change class quests to healing only and be able to kill mobs only by hitting with your weapon.

You have all these skills available why play half a job ?

I believe you're misunderstanding my comment. I never said WHM or other healers shouldn't DPS. I support it. How much they should be able (not willing) is something to bring up however. Because yes, whm has a set to help DPS in every game. So whats the difference between RDM and WHM? Well duh, we know what that is, the RDM nukes more and heals less.

What I'm arguing, is we are that RDM as it stands for most content (not all). In fact I believe this game has a huge problem with the concept of support classes, something it didnt have as much in 1.0. We as the healers, are support hybrids who are not full healers in the classical sense and we dont have any supports in the classical sense.

Now if you're ok with that, thats one thing, I'm just acknowledging that it exists and I myself don't agree with it. Again, just to CLARIFY, I am not excusing lazy healers who not DPS. I believe that work on DPS'ing however should be split more so between healing and DPSing. No laziness was gained in this concept.


edit- Just to ask around on the subject, someone mentioned that DPS-> shorter fights -> saving MP/heals. Now this might be 110% true, and it makes sense just thinking about, but did anyone actually crunch numbers on this? I'm a numbers guy, I'd like to see the data if it is helping and by how much. It wont effect my gameplay (cause again, I DPS), but I'm always curious about such things.

edit again- I'm looking at just my hotbar atm.... 530 for stone III, 884 for cure II. Am I really saving that much on DPSing? It's not looking likely so far.

[FunkyBunch]

edit- Just to ask around on the subject, someone mentioned that DPS-> shorter fights -> saving MP/heals. Now this might be 110% true, and it makes sense just thinking about, but did anyone actually crunch numbers on this? I'm a numbers guy, I'd like to see the data if it is helping and by how much. It wont effect my gameplay (cause again, I DPS), but I'm always curious about such things.

edit again- I'm looking at just my hotbar atm.... 530 for stone III, 884 for cure II. Am I really saving that much on DPSing? It's not looking likely so far.

I don't know about how much MP it saves, but ~400 Healer DPS on Neverreap/Fractal works out to about 3-5 mins off dungeon time. I crunched the numbers in another thread from fflogs.
But the BIGGER/more noticeable effect for is that it saves everyone else's MP and TP (as a NIN I can run out of TP on full pulls-all the available mobs before a barrier- if the Healer doesn't help DPS).

[DaulBan]

Incoming Rounding.

Lamebrix Strikebox has around 4.8 million HP.

If raid DPS before a healer is 9k DPS. That means that you'll kill A10s in (roughly) 4800000 / 9000 or 530s Let's say it's 8:50

If a single healer DPSes for 300 dps, the raid DPS goes up to 9300 DPS. 4800000 / 9300 or 515s or we can say it's 8:35.

If Damage Taken is a function of time and the DTPS, say its 4k across the raid. So if you take 15 fewer seconds to clear the fight you save 60k Damage.

[Ghishlain]

edit- Just to ask around on the subject, someone mentioned that DPS-> shorter fights -> saving MP/heals. Now this might be 110% true, and it makes sense just thinking about, but did anyone actually crunch numbers on this? I'm a numbers guy, I'd like to see the data if it is helping and by how much. It wont effect my gameplay (cause again, I DPS), but I'm always curious about such things.

edit again- I'm looking at just my hotbar atm.... 530 for stone III, 884 for cure II. Am I really saving that much on DPSing? It's not looking likely so far.

Total and utterly complete napkin math incoming and making a lot of assumptions about how consistent and normal the end result HPS / DPS values are for convenience

Current Fastest Record A12S Kill on FFLogs

Fight Duration: 9 minutes 53 seconds (593 seconds total)
Raid DPS: 13,626.2 DPS
Total Damage Done = Fight Duration X Raid DPS = 593S X 13,626.2 Damage/S = 8,080,336.6 Damage Done

Healer DPS = 820.4 (SCH) + 659.1 (AST) = 1,479.5 DPS ( for the record, approximately 877,343.5 [10.85%] Damage Done by Healers )

Raid DPS without Healer DPS = 13,626.2 - 1,479.5 = 12,146.7 DPS

Time needed to complete fight with 12,146.7 DPS = 8,080,336.6 Damage / 12,146.7 DPS = ~665 seconds = ~11 minutes and 5 seconds

665S - 593S = 72S longer fight ( 1 minute and 12 seconds )

Healer HPS Requirement minus Overheal = (SCH) 2,200.5 * [1 - 0.2958] + (AST) 2,127.9 * [1 - 0.3553] = 1,549.59 + 1,371.86 = 2,921.45 HPS required

Additional Healing Required if no Healer DPS'd = 2,921.45 Healing / S * 72 seconds = 210,344.4 Healing

(Badly) Assuming approximately 5,250 HP / Physick OR Benefic OR Cure (for sake of easy math) - total number of Cures needed is = 210,334.4 / 5,250 = 40.06 casts = 17,706.52 additional MP needed
^ Take with an EXTREME heaping of salt, as there is obviously more and BETTER ways to cure than spamming Physick / Cure / Benefic all day, also Benefic costs 20% less MP

(Badly) Assuming approximately 3,200 Damage / Malefic II (for sake of easy math) - total number of Malefic IIs to match current damage = 877,343.5 / 3,200 = 274 Casts = 145,220 MP used
^ Take with an EXTREME heaping of salt, a more accurate way to calculate this (and I don't have the time for this ATM) would be to look at each individual DPS spell / ability cast by both SCH and AST and find out the total MP they used to hit this


I'm fairly certain I've done a much more accurate number crunch in the past that I don't have access too and even then you never save MP DPSing. Mobs die faster at the cost of more MP, but that also means there's "less risk" of things going south too, especially when you consider healer DPS reduces the fight duration by 10%.

So, that's just some food for thought. *Resumes lurking*

[basketofseals]

Not an issue at all WHM has always been able to heal and dps in the single player games.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but WHMs generally don't have any offensive capability until/if they get Holy very late into the game.