Classes and Rotations to be "Easier" in 4.0. Predictions, Concerns, and Discussion.

[Exiled_Tonberry]

They need to reduce skill bloat.

Just looking at DRG and Monk, BotD and Power Surge are the same thing, merge them. The two random positionals are redundant, make it one skill with one positional.

Monk, please remove all the fists and merge them either into one or make all of these abilities static traits on them.
Ninja has static movement speed and jump damage padding not sure why Monk can't.
Also please just make purification free. Charging up chakra for that is just silly. Equilibrium is free, there is no reason Purification shouldn't be.

[ADVSS]

psurge and botd would be really dope actually, jumps felt less awesome in 2.0
if anything the identity thing would be great

[Shurrikhan]

They need to reduce skill bloat.

Just looking at DRG and Monk, BotD and Power Surge are the same thing, merge them. The two random positionals are redundant, make it one skill with one positional.

Monk, please remove all the fists and merge them either into one or make all of these abilities static traits on them.
Ninja has static movement speed and jump damage padding not sure why Monk can't.
Also please just make purification free. Charging up chakra for that is just silly. Equilibrium is free, there is no reason Purification shouldn't be.

I get the desire to trim down on the total skill count, but if you're ever looking for a proportion or sense of button-efficiency (how much fun or control can be packed into how few keys) I suggest you consider also how many buttons' worth of functionality can be gained from a couple extra buttons. This is especially the case in things that could be revamped like the Monk Elemental Fists, or uses of their Chakra system, if they were just improved upon rather than outright removed.

Consider also what making Purification free would mean for Monk dps. That'd be an extra 75% TP restoration -- for free. There are plenty of reasons not to do that. At present Monks at least have to choose between extra uptime or AoE damage in the form of more Rockbreakers or overall TP longevity via Purification vs. the extra potency of The Forbidden Chakra. Should in-combat Meditation ever become viable (e.g. scaling with attack speed) that decision will only become more prevolent. Should Skill Speed ever become viable as a high-DPS, albeit massively TP-expensive, option, then its bonus dps vs. the uptime lost in having to use Purification will become yet another decision available to Monks. But if you instead chop off that functionality, making it basically a Invigorate trait with more output and control than Dragoon's, those decisions can never form, and Monks' dps will likely suffer somewhat to balance out their massively increased TP longevity. (At low skill speed, Monk TP would be infinite; Warrior OT TP longevity would be a joke by comparison.)

[Hustensaft]

I mean... easier?? I've seen lvl 60 dragoons that don't even use heavy thrust. It's a fukking lvl 12 move and they can't figure out it's actually useful. And we want to cater to these people? God help us all

Now welcome to the wonderful world of "reassesment of skills/actions/whatever".

Heavy Thrurst is a spell, that in the grand scheme of things, adds to depth to gameplay, but a certain subset of players fail to use it for the most likely the simple reason possible: It doesn't combo, i shouldn't use it.
Even worse: It's a single-target action, that enables an AoE Combo actions.

This trait can be easily applied to the worst abilities in game: 30 seconds no-other-effect- DoTs - Fracture, Phleb, Scourge, Touch of Death, Mutilate.
That's the epitome of redundant spells that add absolutely zero depth to gameplay, and seemingly only exist for the sake of having an additional spell to learn.
Additionaly, given that all of the classes with this DoT, are melees and their combo actions, having these DoTs is kind of like "hey, delay don't use your combo".
They are an absolutely unnecessary existance, they're confusing for newbies because of the combo actions, they add zero depth to gameplay, they exist for the sole sake of having an additional action to learn on all classes.
You could just as well replace all these DoTs with a passive trait, that adds a DoT component to one of the combo-actions. Saves an button, and likely better gameplay.

You can expand that for virtually every weaponskill that is not a combo-action out there. So putting it bluntly:

EVERY Weaponskill that is not a combo-action should flat out be removed (with a certain few exclusion, generally the ranged ability on melees to pull stuff).

Given that - here is a full overview on how i'd change/remove stuff for all weapon-skill related classes

Lancer: Heavy Thrust, Phlebotomize are removed - Doomspike is now learned signficantly earlier, and Ring of Thorns combo is of Doomspike
Pugilist: Touch of Death, Haymaker removed.
Rogue: Mutilate removed
Marauder: Fracture removed
DRK: Scourge removed.

Let's take a look at another spell - that in my opinion saves hardly any purpose - aside of costing an additional button: Ruin 3.
It is your filler spell during Dreadwyrm trance, and you can use if outside of DWT to gain additional damage - BUT WAIT, there was a spell that already did similar stuff, it was called Ruin 2.

Whatever Ruin 3 does could easily be split between Ruin I and Ruin 2. DWT now increased damage of Ruin 1 - while Ruin 2 gets a slightly increased mana cost/damage ratio. (But but senpai, i use Ruin 2 to deal damage while moving - great, now you use your overflow mana to deal additional damage while movement OR standing still, instead of using additional mana to deal additional damage while standing still).

And you can expand this to several (a lot) of other actions. They don't serve any purpose aside of looking prettier. (A SCH hardly need Ruin 1/2 once he has Broil)

Just turn all these redundant actions into passive traits, and give us a glamour system for abilities to keep the effects around. (hello Egi-Glamour, your system could be expanded to practically all spells).

[Khalithar]

Snip

I love your ideas and can certainly get behind all of them. The thing with the DoT spells is though is that they're a good way of adding dps to a class without overly it's frontloaded burst and allows them to keep up a bit of damage when they break off a target. As much as I love the idea of getting rid of all those abilities, there would have to be a lot of potency adjustments to compensate.

[Shurrikhan]

snip

Just playing devil's advocate here, but, DoTs do add at least as much depth as any other core attack, whatever their duration.

• They fill rotational space, and therefore are limited in where they can be placed within certain windows, and can often be pushed at cost of buff reapplication timings -- creating a point of decision, or compromise.
• They provide per-execute potency dynamics that depend on expected remaining seconds' of life on the target -- creating a point of foresight.
• None of them have natively enhanced enmity, and are all below the direct potency of non-DoTs -- creating a compromise between setup for enmity or immediacy of damage and enhanced dps.
• They allow for a second, more TP-efficient means of "AoE", DoT spreading -- this requires the player to consider his overall TP needs and resource, the total (per-execute) potency that can be inflicted by his AoEs, and the total (per-execute, including combo setup) potency that can be inflicted by each of his DoTs.

The only complexity any combo carries is due entirely to the windows caused by the player's DoTs and buffs.

Now let's take those last bits, e.g. Ruin III. Ruin II does not deal any more damage than Ruin I. It costs additional mana in order to free oGCD space and be used on the move; that is all. While the comparison between Ruin I and Boil is apt, the efficiency ratio is drastically different moving from Ruin I to Ruin III. Ruin III has far higher opportunity cost. Now, you could easily add mechanics to Ruin and Ruin II to allow for increased control of mana consumption for damage (altogether, output vs. efficiency) and perhaps even again give their maximum or near-maximum benefit for free while under DWT, but until that time, you are reducing complexity. You can mimic conventional use of Ruin III by, say, having Ruin I cost a % of current mana, and deal higher damage accordingly, but that still won't allow for maxing output before a combat-break, unloading on an enemy at all costs, or saving mana for a potential Swift-Ress.

The very idea of any buff or debuff is "do I have the time to make use of it" and "will it do what I need in time". Turn all that instead into passives, and the player makes no decisions. Hardware macro your way to victory.

That's not redacting until you find new ways to create points of decision. That's gutting.

Potency adjustments are easy. Retaining a playerbase who might enjoy challenge after trimming a huge portion of it from their personal rotations? Not so much.

EVERY Weaponskill that is not a combo-action should flat out be removed.

Or to put this quote another way: 'all weaponskills or buttons for them (with few exceptions) should be our combos.'

But do we really need so many buttons for our combos anyways?

Let's keep in mind how many actual actions we have. If you never choose not to complete a combo, then the only actual action you have is the finisher for that combo. That "combo" is no different from Fracture, Heavy Thrust, or Phlebotomize, except that it takes an additional 2 to 3 GCDs to go off.

On a level 50 Dragoon for instance that would give you four weaponskills — Chaos Thrust, Full Thrust, Heavy Thrust, and Phlebotomize; 6 core abilities — Leg Sweep, Power Surge, Jump, Spineshatter Dive, Dragonfire Dive, and Blood for Blood; and 3 auxiliary abilities — Invigorate, Keen Flurry, and Elusive Jump; and your 5 cross-class skills.
:: Heavy Thrust and Phlebotomize make up half your separate weaponskills, but only 9% of your total bindings at level 50 and 7.4% at level 60, or 25% of your weaponskill bindings at level 50, and 20% at level 60. 20% to 25% of the weaponskill button space makes up half your choices, while 8 slots at level 60 carry only one choice (do I start with Full Thrust or Chaos Thrust, and unless that mob is going to live for fewer than 5 GCDs, the answer will always be Chaos Thrust). Which set is the more efficient?

But, for now, let's go ahead and trim all non-combo weaponskills. That leaves your weaponskill total at 2 buttons on Dragoon, 3 on Monk, Paladin, and Dark Knight, 4 on Ninja (can be reduced to 3), and 5 on Warrior (can be reduced to 4).
At that point you wouldn't have to worry about button-bloat. Though you have specs that are simpler than the most pruned on WoW, and each combo use would make you feel like you have a GCD of 5 to 10 seconds.

Alternatively, you can keep the non-combo abilities AND reduce the buttons necessary to perform your combos, at which point you retain the same level of control, but need 3 to 7 fewer keys per job.

Some examples of reducing button bloat, including two perfect cases, and then the one I find messiest, reducing all to 3 buttons from an original 5 to 9 buttons.

Perfect Cases:
Dragoon - Two buttons, one per combo. F&C and WT combined and become same-slot positionally-defined skills.
Monk - Three buttons, rotating through stance. (1) Bootshine, (2) Dragon Kick, (3) AotD > (1) True Strike, (2) Twin Snakes, (3) 1IP > (1) Snap Punch, (2) Demolish, (3) Rockbreaker, player-rearrangeable.

Messy:
Ninja - 3 buttons. Starts as (1) Spinning Edge, (2) Mutilate, (3) Throwing Daggers.
On Spinning Edge: (1) Gust Slash, (2) Shadow Fang, (3) Throwing Daggers.
On Gust Slash: (1) Aeolian Edge, (2) Dancing Fang, (3) Armor Crush.

[Khalithar]

Or to put it another way: all weaponskills or buttons for them (with few exceptions) should be combos

That's actually a fantastic idea and something I could definitely get behind instead of scrapping dots entirely. I play Drk and Pld as my mains, I will say that Goring Blade "flows" a lot better than Scourge in my opinion. Random thought, change Scourge to combo off Spinning Slash, it would give me a reason to use something besides Delirium/Souleater when I'm OT or have my threat fully established.

[JMadFour]

DRK: Scourge removed.

and its AWESOME animation is given to Hard Slash.

[Shurrikhan]

That's actually a fantastic idea and something I could definitely get behind instead of scrapping dots entirely. I play Drk and Pld as my mains, I will say that Goring Blade "flows" a lot better than Scourge in my opinion. Random thought, change Scourge to combo off Spinning Slash, it would give me a reason to use something besides Delirium/Souleater when I'm OT or have my threat fully established.

I'll edit for clarification.

The rest of my post detailed how the removal of DoTs (and buffs) leaves players with nearly a one-button rotation, how that'd be a bad thing, and why it is unnecessary to remove non-combo abilities to combat button bloat given that combos themselves are the prime example of button bloat. They are a single ability, in multiple steps, yet despite being locked in manage to take up a separate bind per step. Starting instead with pruning the non-combo abilities, the ones that are not inherently bloated, makes about as much sense entering a crime scene with the murder still hacking away at the corpse and a scared child huddling in the corner and saying "that child looks suspicious; bring her in for questioning." It also begs the question: what the hell do I do with the non-melee?

Aside:
You'd have to be at an awkward skill speed plateau to smoothly fit that extra Spinning Slash into your rotation just to use your strongest attack (Scourge) on debuff, and combining the two would cut your cleave efficiency by 35%, one of DRK's prime strengths in 3-target rotations. Goring Blade's being tied to a combo makes it far more difficult to initiate and greatly reduces the chance of it being maximized; if the target was to die in ~24 seconds time, perfect for Goring Blade, you've used up 7.5 seconds just putting the DoT up, so that only 16.5 seconds (~70%) of the DoT can actually be used. Numbers can be adjusted to compensate for external balance, such as between classes, but design itself is the main determiner of internal balance (whether an ability is worth using in x situation). Pruning abilities and redistributing their effects into passives will necessarily change the internal balance of the remaining skills, and unless aimed purposely otherwise, that rebalance tends to leave fewer viable options per scenario among the remaining abilities as well.

[Madrone]

BLM: Take some or all of this.


1) Fire IV potency reduced from 280 to 260. Fire IV now grants Astral Fire or removes Umbral Ice. Enochian no longer required to cast.
Blizzard IV potency reduced to 260. Enochian no longer required to cast. Grants Umbral Ice or Removes Astral Fire.

2) Freeze grants Umbral Ice III and removes Astral Fire.

3) Enochian renewal no longer reduced by 5s each time.

4) Surecast allows for casting while moving.


Thereby Enochian is simply a 5% damage buff that BLM's renew once per minute with B4. F4 x5 is the new rotation- total potency remains unchanged compared to the F4x2 F1x1 F4x2 we do now. Fire I's are only used with sharpcast when a proc is wanted. Freeze can be used in AoE rotation. Surecast becomes useful.