SE must be drunk.

[Reynhart]

When you heal a player at full health, we refer to that as "overhealing". It's unfortunate that we haven't coined a similar word for tanking (i.e. "overmitigation").

Technically, we had in 3.0-3.1. It was called "wasted HP pool"

Playing these roles at their maximum potential requires you to identify how much is the correct amount, both for the fight and for your group.

The thing is, the correct amount is either unrelated to the group, or so strict that you basically follow a roadmap and have no skill to put in it.

When you realise that, you quickly see that all of the core tenets of tanking are reflected in your ability to safely dps.

Actually, no. Your ability to DPS is put against your ability to survive, which is redirected entirely on the healers. Casting Clemency or Stoneskin "is a DPS loss", using Inner Beast "is a DPS loss", keeping your tank stance "is a DPS loss". If you focus on anything but DPS, people think you're holding them back, and that's just stupid.

If you find a tank who has higher dps than you, it's because they know how to mitigate more effectively than you. I wouldn't see this as an affront, but as a learning opportunity. Steal their secrets.

No, if I find a tank that does more DPS than me, it just means that they put more stress on their healer than I. The cooldown rotation is pretty much set in stone for every fight, what they do in between is just keeping their tank stance away as much as their healer can support. That's their "secret".

I want to be challenged as a tank. I want enmity generation to have weight, to the point where DPS would only express their maximum output if they end with a skilled tank...People threatening to kick tank because they "survive too much" is just the most nonsensical thing I've seen in this game...and that's saying a lot...

A little question, did you play FFXI ? Did you tank in FFXI ?

[Lyth]

No, if I find a tank that does more DPS than me, it just means that they put more stress on their healer than I. The cooldown rotation is pretty much set in stone for every fight, what they do in between is just keeping their tank stance away as much as their healer can support. That's their "secret".

I don't believe that you can blame your healer for limitations in your dps. There are always places in fights where you're taking significantly less damage, and the 20% DR from tank stance doesn't change your healer's decision making at all. In some cases, the actual amount of damage mitigated from tank stance is less than the value of a regen tick.

[Seku]

A little question, did you play FFXI ? Did you tank in FFXI ?

Yep. Worked the same way but in a system were gear sets were king. 90% of things were shadow tanked. Things that couldn't be shadow tanked, you Zerg (beat the living hell out of it) it down. The only blood tanking really done was in Dynamis. This only changed after Abyessa drop when they started putting out more -damage taken% gear with real stats on it for "idel" sets, which you still should be trying to max out your passive auto attacks along with enmity+ gear to keep it up, assuming you're TPing -- as most groups stuck to BLM or Relic Rangers to not TP feed mobs.

TLDR;
While I see your point, your choice to bring up FF11 is poor. As in 11 Damage = hate. Rdm shadow tanking / Rdm 2hr chain stunning = King tank in most content from RoZ until Abyessa.

[Reynhart]

Yep. Worked the same way but in a system were gear sets were king.

Actually, no, there was a huge difference.

I had a leveling static where I played PLD, and we had a THF and a SAM. At lvl 33, the more famous skillchain was Tachi: Enpi - Viper Bite, used with Sneak Attack and Trick Attack.
The thing is, SA+TA-VB was so powerful that keeping aggro on that was very difficult. So, frequently, the SAM provoked the mob away from the tank, so that the THF could align behind the tank and behind the mob.

But, if you knew how to hold aggro really well, you could keep the mob on you, while the THF stayed behind the mob and the SAM, and the mob wouldn't turn around.

In FFXI, DPS were much more powerful but were limited by how many enmity the tank could generate. When you ended with a good tank as a DPS, you really felt like you didn't have to hold back and it was a great feeling, for the tank and for the DPS.

Because the game design homogenizes every job class within the Trinity so there is little to no diversity whatsoever. As a result all 3 Tanks largely function the same outside of their one trick pony gimmicks.

Of course, it does, since everything people complain about is the lack of DPS. PLD's only adjustement during 3.x was to improve its DPS despite still supposed to be "the tank that mitigates". It's not that complicated to design them with another goal and still achieve similar results.

You don't really feel like much of a Tank if you become reliant on a Healer to top you off after every other Tankbuster with the autoattack followups. Feels more like have enough HP to survive and let the healer basically heal all the damage. And unfortunately as a DRK I am always super reliant on a healer. Not by choice but by design unfortunately.

That's exactly how tanks are now. You always rely on the healer to keep you alive. As a PLD, let me be a turtle, let me rely less on the healer to survive, since surviving is supposed to be my thing. And you can keep your WAR as the sturdier DPS.

Tanks surviving tank busters in DPS stance is mostly because they manage their CDs well enough to cycle without having healers to shield them, and it's not even a new concept in this game.

No, it's mostly because the fight design makes it too easy to heal them inbetween tank busters, even if they stay out of tank stance.

High DPS is still required to clear raids, and that is a fact. Your opinions and the facts just don't mix.

Yes, it is required. But having high personal DPS is not the only way for tanks to contribute in increasing the raid DPS. If DRK could provide TP and MP refresh with some of its skills, then MCH and BRD wouldn't have to sacrifice their DPS. If PLD mitigates enough (for him or by helping the MT) so that one healer can go 100% Cleric Stance (unless shitty situations) or even replace it with a fifth DPS, PLD's mitigation would improve raid DPS.

Just don't narrow the party's dynamic to one way when we have so much jobs...

[Sarcatica]

Yes, it is required. But having high personal DPS is not the only way for tanks to contribute in increasing the raid DPS. If DRK could provide TP and MP refresh with some of its skills, then MCH and BRD wouldn't have to sacrifice their DPS. If PLD mitigates enough (for him or by helping the MT) so that one healer can go 100% Cleric Stance (unless shitty situations) or even replace it with a fifth DPS, PLD's mitigation would improve raid DPS.

Just don't narrow the party's dynamic to one way when we have so much jobs...

Currently only A9S dries up TP fast (due to aoe-ing and 100% uptime on boss) for the TP users that BRD/MCH has to give TP song. The rest of the tier is just singing Ballad and/or Foes which is for the benefits of the team, in the first place they are used in raid mostly for support.

The funny thing is one healer is already almost going full DPS (SCH, yes), your point is invalid on PLD mitigating enough. The word "enough" is very hard to take at face value, "enough" can be easy for the best raiders which in turn makes "enough" very hard for average joes, vice versa, "enough" for majorities making that "enough" unnecessary for raiders. Just because you haven't experienced it yet doesn't make your point valid by a long stretch. When you go to raid, you need to have a certain competency to pull your own weight, even if you are tanks/healers, you are still subjected to chime in DPS.

High personal DPS can have different meanings, some people just make healers heal more for their epeens, some just want to have enough to clear, that's how they want/choose to do it. What is considered as "high" DPS anyway? Is 500dps high? Is 1.4k low? Your definition will be different than let's say mine.

No, it's mostly because the fight design makes it too easy to heal them inbetween tank busters, even if they stay out of tank stance.

Then can we expect 50% of the community to clear A12S before 4.0? If it's so easy, why aren't we all cleared already?

[Reynhart]

The rest of the tier is just singing Ballad and/or Foes which is for the benefits of the team, in the first place they are used in raid mostly for support.

To support the team with ballad, they must sacrifice part of their damage output. If one specific tank could provide it, they wouldn't have too. BRD and MCH are capable of doing really great numbers when they're focused on DPSing so they're valuable even if they don't support the team with Ballad or Paeon. And casters would love more Requiem uptime.

What is considered as "high" DPS anyway? Is 500dps high? Is 1.4k low? Your definition will be different than let's say mine.

The exact number is not the problem. high DPS depends on the maximum output of the job. But you're no what personal DPS contribution is when compared to raid wide DPS contribution.

Then can we expect 50% of the community to clear A12S before 4.0? If it's so easy, why aren't we all cleared already?

Simple. Because 90% of the population actually don't even set foot in Alex Savage. Not because they won't be able to clear it but because they don't care.

this are the best jobs for me, tank just to be a meatpunch is boring.

Right, "for you". Why should we all have to feel the same when we have three tanks to chose ?

[Seku]

Actually, no, there was a huge difference.

I had a leveling static where I played PLD, and we had a THF and a SAM. At lvl 33, the more famous skillchain was Tachi: Enpi - Viper Bite, used with Sneak Attack and Trick Attack.
The thing is, SA+TA-VB was so powerful that keeping aggro on that was very difficult. So, frequently, the SAM provoked the mob away from the tank, so that the THF could align behind the tank and behind the mob.

But, if you knew how to hold aggro really well, you could keep the mob on you, while the THF stayed behind the mob and the SAM, and the mob wouldn't turn around.
In FFXI, DPS were much more powerful but were limited by how many enmity the tank could generate. When you ended with a good tank as a DPS, you really felt like you didn't have to hold back and it was a great feeling, for the tank and for the DPS.
.

And this shows me how much you don't know anything about 11, even while trying to compare it to a totally different game. Good job also on killing your DPS on 11, if you ever go back, should try utsusemi rotating as a ninja or actually having the Sam tank through seigan and third eye as well as taking no damage keeps your hate up and both dish out more damage. Also you should have your THF split SA and TA, since SA works off Dex and TA works off AGI, would need two different sets for those, stacking them, more so at a low level always results in a DPS lost. Also make sure your thf is using a cross bow at such a low level due to the low base damage of daggers, making them useless on just about anything other than their DEX, R.ACC, and R.ATK. Other wise the only thing their good for is TH if you're trying to collect on items to get your crafting up.

TLDR:
Please learn to play FF11 before trying to compare it to a totally different game.

[Reynhart]

Please learn to play FF11 before trying to compare it to a totally different game.

Wow, this is wonderful.
Wonderful ignorance...

First, Seigan was only introduced in 2006, so SAM didn't have it while I was leveling PLD. Second, I played PLD, so tell me how I should rotate Utsusemi...and last, around level 30, you stacked SA and TA because TA might have a chance to miss and you want to stack as much base damage as you could before applying the WS multipliers.

Trying to give lesson with so little knowledge...

As for your Crossbow vs Dagger thing, this is so irrelevant and so wrong that I'm pretty sure you just mentionned it here to gossip.

[Seku]

Wow, this is wonderful.
Wonderful ignorance...

First, Seigan was only introduced in 2006, so SAM didn't have it while I was leveling PLD. Second, I played PLD, so tell me how I should rotate Utsusemi...and last, around level 30, you stacked SA and TA because TA might have a chance to miss and you want to stack as much base damage as you could before applying the WS multipliers.

Trying to give lesson with so little knowledge...

As for your Crossbow vs Dagger thing, this is so irrelevant and so wrong that I'm pretty sure you just mentionned it here to gossip.

Never stated as a PLD, as PLD was useless with people that knew how to count shadows and roll between utsumi, more so a RDM, at max level unless you had a Ageis and I can tell already you didn't. It was also useless in a good party that knew how to control hate properly and count shadows on slow attacking mobs. No one blood tank and if they did, the nearest DPS would throw up their -50% damage taken set until another DPS took it off them.

Also, yes I know SAM's Seigan came out 10 years ago. But if the last time you played was 10 years ago, why are you trying to compare a game that you haven't even played for half it's life span, have no real tanking experience with, and not for long at that if the only experience you have is lv 33, I know you didn't play since launch or you just leveled extremely slow

Sounds like your THF needs to invest into acc if their missing mobs and if they have to worry about missing.

Viper bite is a 100% dex modifer and VB has a base damage multiplier of...1...also TA works outside of this multiplier and just adds on it's base damage to the Weapon skill.
https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Trick_Attack
https://www.bg-wiki.com/bg/Viper_Bite - You'll notice the fTP (the base damage multiplier effect) is 1. 1 x 1 is....oh yeah 1. Meaning only DEX really helps your Viper bites.

TA Is agi based and does damage equal to your main hand base damage + AGI, if your thf is in dex gear, when the skill goes off instead of AGI their missing damage.

Nah, trying to help your THF do relevant damage at new player levels so you can stop taking 14 years to get to Lv. 99 and gain a mastery on a job. As well as to show you that at best your experience in tanking in FF11 is that of a new player. Tanking at level 33 is like tanking at level 20-25 in 14.

Cross bow does more damage at level 30 due to their higher base damage. Daggers don't become relevant until you unlock dual wield 2 with a ninja sub for the lower delay the only exception being that you get the extra stats off the daggers, such as AGI, DEX, ACC, ATK, ect. , unless your thf likes sitting round for about 8-10 seconds while TP feeding the mob , as that'll happen at level 30 with daggers instead of 3-4 seconds before popping off a ranged attack with higher base damage and higher potential?

Yet again....stop talking about things you don't know anything about.


FF11 Tanking meta:
https://youtu.be/1XChg3faluA?t=1m45s - shit dies.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpYgXkiDe84 - Pld can't keep hate (note dude in the white standing around doing nothing while everyone else goes ape shit to get and switch hate).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5HM7730Kvo - more shadow tanking and DPS fest.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8jLL7-TwHA - oh more DPS centered event where RDM/DRK stops all outgoing party damage.

Blood Tanking and arrgo management that people try to say exist in 11 doesn't really exist in 80% of 11. And when it did....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3DqbFb5Fu0 - Note how Sam takes hate. Rotates shadows and uses third eye to avoid all damage, while doing damage is the reason he keeps hate

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HywIWjRnZJ8 - Just in case there is any question from the last tanking video. Here's a blm tanking a end game boss. ;o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rqUzWBdCgc - Red mage supporting themselves / MT.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-avaKx8mCI - Rdm again killing it with tanking, reducing damage to 0 on two bosses.
Welcome to 2004 - abyessa era FF11. =3

TLDR:
Stop talking about something you know nothing about and trying to compare it to another game. FF11 Was more DPS centered than 14. ;o

[Reynhart]

You'll notice the fTP (the base damage multiplier effect) is 1. 1 x 1 is....oh yeah 1.

You know that fTP is not the damage multiplier but the effect of TP on damage, right ?
You also know that having a second weapon will add 1 to this multiplier, right ?

Oh you're just saying nonsense just to sound smart ?