SE must be drunk.

[Reynhart]

When you heal a player at full health, we refer to that as "overhealing". It's unfortunate that we haven't coined a similar word for tanking (i.e. "overmitigation").

Technically, we had in 3.0-3.1. It was called "wasted HP pool"

Playing these roles at their maximum potential requires you to identify how much is the correct amount, both for the fight and for your group.

The thing is, the correct amount is either unrelated to the group, or so strict that you basically follow a roadmap and have no skill to put in it.

When you realise that, you quickly see that all of the core tenets of tanking are reflected in your ability to safely dps.

Actually, no. Your ability to DPS is put against your ability to survive, which is redirected entirely on the healers. Casting Clemency or Stoneskin "is a DPS loss", using Inner Beast "is a DPS loss", keeping your tank stance "is a DPS loss". If you focus on anything but DPS, people think you're holding them back, and that's just stupid.

If you find a tank who has higher dps than you, it's because they know how to mitigate more effectively than you. I wouldn't see this as an affront, but as a learning opportunity. Steal their secrets.

No, if I find a tank that does more DPS than me, it just means that they put more stress on their healer than I. The cooldown rotation is pretty much set in stone for every fight, what they do in between is just keeping their tank stance away as much as their healer can support. That's their "secret".

I want to be challenged as a tank. I want enmity generation to have weight, to the point where DPS would only express their maximum output if they end with a skilled tank...People threatening to kick tank because they "survive too much" is just the most nonsensical thing I've seen in this game...and that's saying a lot...

A little question, did you play FFXI ? Did you tank in FFXI ?

[Launched]

Then play a DPS. Why do you even play tank if you find tanking boring ?
What may seem boring to you can be interesting for someone else. Why should this game only reward one type of tank ?

I want to be challenged as a tank. I want enmity generation to have weight, to the point where DPS would only express their maximum output if they end with a skilled tank...People threatening to kick tank because they "survive too much" is just the most nonsensical thing I've seen in this game...and that's saying a lot...

Maybe you should go find another MMO with the kind of tank you want instead of forcing your ideas onto the people that like FFXIV's style of tanking. You want the game to reward only one type of tank: the one that you like.

[Zojha]

You didnt really counter his statement.

I countered the statement that monsters hitting harder would make mitigation stats more desirable - it won't. Mitigation stats become desirable again once monsters hit so hard that healers are unable to keep up anymore, meaning: Once they are absolutely required. That's in no way different from now - you can't tank Xelphatol in level 15 armor either. After you pass that threshold? Mitigation stats are still worthless. All you achieve in the process is to take away the option to use damage stats - because as it stands, defensive stats are an option, just suboptimal. You make them required, damage stats aren't suboptimal, they are unviable.

So big whoop. You're only raising the minimum mitigation bar and destroying options in the process. Might as well increase DamageDealer DPS and Monster health a thousandfold to make them more important as well - Bad Design 101.

Let's get basic:
The game at its core has only two things that matter: Effective Health (HealthXMitigation) and Damage. Whoever gets to reduce the others effective health first via damage wins. Of the two, damage is the more desirable, because surviving longer means more incoming damage means more effective HP overall needed. The shorter the fight, the less effective HP you need.
Basic math example: If an enemy has effective 1000 health and deals 100 DPS, you need either 1000 effective health and 112 DPS to clear, or 1100 effective health and 100 DPS. So far so good, right? Seems like mitigation has its place.

Mitigation and Healing both serve one and the same purpose: Increasing effective HP. You have 100 HP, 0% mitigation means a 50 health heal gives you 150 effective HP. ~33% mitigation does the same thing. And healing scales with mitigation - A 50 health heal at 50% mitigation is worth 100 effective HP.

The two problems here are:
The example fight of above cuts off at 9 seconds (enrage).
Healers alone could give you enough effective HP to get to 18 seconds, if the fight didn't cut off at 9.

Until healers cannot get you to those 9 seconds anymore, mitigating more is entirely pointless because you could already survive longer than the enrage allows. More damage however allows you to clear faster and thus a better shot at killing the enemy before the enrage. This is the view on mitigation in higher performance content, such as *cough* normal raids, where enrages are a thing.

In casual content, again, healers provide more effective HP than you can possibly need. Why increase it even further when you can instead just speed things up? That's like increasing your armor rating while using an invincibility cheat - pointless. That is what I was getting at when I was mentioning running a dungeon without a healer and a tank each - healing is just so much more efficient at providing effective HP and not just to one member in the party at that.

There is only ONE way mitigation stats can have meaning beyond the required minimum in the game as is and that is to allow the healers more cleric stance uptime. In other words, to compensate the selfish damage loss of the tank with a damage gain on the healers. Going that route however you have to account for resource efficiency as well. Which would make mitigation pretty broken.

This isn't even going into the fact that unreliable mitigation just screws over healers, because they'll naturally always plan their heals for the case where you don't mitigate and end up overhealing.

[Reynhart]

Maybe you should go find another MMO with the kind of tank you want instead of forcing your ideas onto the people that like FFXIV's style of tanking. You want the game to reward only one type of tank: the one that you like.

Actually, the current meta is what has been forced on all kind of tanks. Forced by blind sheep that rejected everything else because the World First race in Gordias actually required that...a raid that was acknowledged as bad design by the dev team themselves. Forced to the point that, if our gear suddenly have parry stat on it (You know, the actual mitigation stats), then people are pissed. Even back then, Vit accessories, the only one where we can actually roll "need" on, were avoided because of this meta.

And as I've said, we have 3 tank jobs, and we'll probably receive a 4th one in the next expansion. Why should all of them have to tank the same way ?

Of the two, damage is the more desirable, because surviving longer means more incoming damage means more effective HP overall needed. The shorter the fight, the less effective HP you need.

If I take 500 damage per second during a three minute fight, I'll need more effective HP than if I take 400 damage per second during a three and a half minute fight.

This isn't even going into the fact that unreliable mitigation just screws over healers, because they'll naturally always plan their heals for the case where you don't mitigate and end up overhealing.

There are plenty of ways to make Parry reliable. Make parry and block an active skill that reduces damaged base on your parry stat, make mitigation CD scale with parry, like WS scale of AP, Det and Crit...

[Sarynth]

So just an idea I had at work regarding parry. How would adding it to weapons not as a substat, but instead weapons would now be weapon damage:x parry: x crit/det/ss: +x? The x value for parry would be a % chance of an attack being parried and damage of the parried attack being reduced by x%. Tank weapons would obviously receive higher values, but I'd like to see the communities input on this.

Edit: should probably mention that I'd like to see parry removed from gear (armor and accessories)

[Lyth]

No, if I find a tank that does more DPS than me, it just means that they put more stress on their healer than I. The cooldown rotation is pretty much set in stone for every fight, what they do in between is just keeping their tank stance away as much as their healer can support. That's their "secret".

I don't believe that you can blame your healer for limitations in your dps. There are always places in fights where you're taking significantly less damage, and the 20% DR from tank stance doesn't change your healer's decision making at all. In some cases, the actual amount of damage mitigated from tank stance is less than the value of a regen tick.

[Seku]

A little question, did you play FFXI ? Did you tank in FFXI ?

Yep. Worked the same way but in a system were gear sets were king. 90% of things were shadow tanked. Things that couldn't be shadow tanked, you Zerg (beat the living hell out of it) it down. The only blood tanking really done was in Dynamis. This only changed after Abyessa drop when they started putting out more -damage taken% gear with real stats on it for "idel" sets, which you still should be trying to max out your passive auto attacks along with enmity+ gear to keep it up, assuming you're TPing -- as most groups stuck to BLM or Relic Rangers to not TP feed mobs.

TLDR;
While I see your point, your choice to bring up FF11 is poor. As in 11 Damage = hate. Rdm shadow tanking / Rdm 2hr chain stunning = King tank in most content from RoZ until Abyessa.

[Sarcatica]

Vit was shunned in Gordias because you only needed 16-17k hp to even tank in DPS stance, and STR was at 1 AP ratio. Vit literally was shit when you have the HP threshold to tank. After that change, Vit literally has no downside and you'd be dumb to still stick with STR setup unless if you are into maximizing dps after meeting the absolute HP threshold.

[Sarcatica]

Technically, we had in 3.0-3.1. It was called "wasted HP pool"

It was 100% a waste, you didn't ever need 20k HP to ever survive anything, so it's better off tunneled into STR which was more beneficial. Nothing hit that hard if you do enough CDs back then.

Actually, no. Your ability to DPS is put against your ability to survive, which is redirected entirely on the healers. Casting Clemency or Stoneskin "is a DPS loss", using Inner Beast "is a DPS loss", keeping your tank stance "is a DPS loss". If you focus on anything but DPS, people think you're holding them back, and that's just stupid.

No, if I find a tank that does more DPS than me, it just means that they put more stress on their healer than I. The cooldown rotation is pretty much set in stone for every fight, what they do in between is just keeping their tank stance away as much as their healer can support. That's their "secret".

Let's put it this way, anything is a waste if you survive in the end. This is the truth. No matter how you want to bend it, that's how it is. That's just the skill gap between people who actively raid at high level and people who just play to clear stuff you are witnessing at the moment. Tanks surviving tank busters in DPS stance is mostly because they manage their CDs well enough to cycle without having healers to shield them, and it's not even a new concept in this game. Even when tanks are doing huge DPS, it doesn't mean that healers don't get the chance to DPS. Want proofs? Here is one at A11S: https://www.fflogs.com/reports/3AyJQ...pe=damage-done

TLDR: Your opinion about tanks putting more stress on their healers is invalid. It's a stress when you are not familiar. For raiders, this type of play is encouraged to meet the DPS checks and to end the fights earlier to avoid the enrages and harder parts. High DPS is still required to clear raids, and that is a fact. Your opinions and the facts just don't mix.

TLDR2: The better your group is, the easier it is to push DPS while still be totally safe. Again, that's the fact and you need to accept it if you are going to raid at a higher level. 700dps as a tank nowadays will significantly make it harder for your group to clear any of the hard content, because you definitely can breech that 1k++ DPS easily. Again, pick your poisons (??).

This game takes account all the DPS you can get, including healers and tanks. If you don't like it then okay, suit yourself.

[MagiusNecros]

And as I've said, we have 3 tank jobs, and we'll probably receive a 4th one in the next expansion. Why should all of them have to tank the same way ?

Because the game design homogenizes every job class within the Trinity so there is little to no diversity whatsoever. As a result all 3 Tanks largely function the same outside of their one trick pony gimmicks.

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You don't really feel like much of a Tank if you become reliant on a Healer to top you off after every other Tankbuster with the autoattack followups. Feels more like have enough HP to survive and let the healer basically heal all the damage. And unfortunately as a DRK I am always super reliant on a healer. Not by choice but by design unfortunately.