FFXIV has some serious competition with WoW: Legion

[Duelle]

I find your analysis of class composition flawed. XIV's design structure is really rigid and has found the developers painting themselves into a corner more often than I can count. Raids will always have:

-2 tanks, a "main" tank with superior mitigative abilities, and an "off-tank" with adequate mitigative capabilities but consequential DPS when not tanking
-2 healers, one of which will be a burst/reactive healer and the other of which will be a shield/mitigative healer and will also be judged by their DPS contributions when not healing
-2 melee DPS, whichever ones get boned the least by mechanics and have the best damage output
-a magical ranged DPS, see my melee DPS comment above
-a physical ranged DPS, brought for their resource regenerative capabilties and because they don't compete with other DPS drops (imagine if NIN and BRD/MCH shared all gear, not just accessories lol)

I can't upvote this enough.

FFXIV's approach to class and role design is fairly limited and funnels classes into mini-niches. It's not a good thing in the long run, specially taking into account that AST had to be created as a copy-WHM/copy-SCH job instead of being designed around its own approach to healing.

I find that WoW's class system, with things like Druids and Death Knights bringing battle rez, any Shaman bringing Bloodlust (whether heals or DPS), Druids bringing Innervate, Holy Priests bringing an AOE Innervate, mages bringing MP-restoring food, Warlocks bringing their "get out mechanics free" movement portal and a re-raise via Soulstones, as well as a myriad of other utilities I'm forgetting to list here, means that each class actually brings far more to a raid than just damage.

The thing to really stress here is that a raid's success rarely hinges on the utility classes bring. I think the only time utility was notably abused was in Blackrock Descent with raids stacking druids for battle rezzes. Sure, you can bring up stuff like Bloodlust/Heroism, but the devs eventually got to distributing it to other classes/specs so that Shaman don't have a monopoly on a single and very powerful raid cooldown (mages can do the Time Warp and hunters have Ancient Hysteria via one of their pets).

Compared to XIV, where we have Dragon Kick (which is basically Virus, which is basically Storm's Path, which is basically that one DRK move...yes, these moves all stack, but the fact remains that the ability is RIDICULOUSLY homogenized across several jobs) vs Battle Litany (a move no other class has) vs Trick Attack (which is fairly homogenized with MCH's Hypercharge/BRD's Foe's at least for casters); healers all have a raise, they all have a way to instantly cast that raise, and AST was basically designed around emulating WHM and SCH as much as possible because the devs couldn't figure out any other way to make them fit in with the current healing meta and raid design. All tanks have a "get out of death free" card, all physical DPS get to cross-class Invigorate, and all casters will get to cross-class THM for Swiftcast. It's so weird that you think that classes in XIV are really unique and varied, when in reality there's a crapton of overlap in pretty much everyone's toolkit, because the devs are afraid of shaking up the balance tree.

Some of this can be blamed on thematics. I got shot down during 1.2x for daring to suggest Hallowed Ground/Invincible be removed or nerfed because PLD having an invincibility forces EVERY tank to have an invincibility to compete. That's a huge problem design-wise. I have a similar issue with Swiftcast because it's become a necessity for all casters (for the WoW comparison, only Arcane Mages have access to Swiftcast/Presence of Mind; every other caster just has to eat their cast times and like it but also have more instant-cast spells and things like procs/mechanics that reduce/remove cast times).

[Reynhart]

I got shot down during 1.2x for daring to suggest Hallowed Ground/Invincible be removed or nerfed because PLD having an invincibility forces EVERY tank to have an invincibility to compete.

Actually, no, it doesn't. The problem is not with the existence of Hallowed Ground, but in the raid design to make HG mandatory. For example, in A1S, you have to use HG on one of the Plasma because you other skills would all be on CD. While DRK and WAR could keep Holmgang and LD safe for when things go really sour.

Every job should have one ultimate skill, but there's no need to be the same. After all, WHM is the only job with an instant full heal.
As a sidenote, in FFXI, PLD was the only tank to have an Invincible buff, yet it was frequently the less prefered tank. And Invincible was frequently used to gain massive enmity (After a party wide Benediction) instead of just preventing damage.

As for Swiftcast, it's the same as Provoke. You don't have much option on what to do with these skills:

• Not include them, thus reducing the type of mechanics you can design since nothing can rely on them.
• Give these as a native skill to each role, wich will be seen as homogenization
• Give these as cros-class skills...which is irrelevant, since you have no choice but to take them

But I still feel a little dissapointed with tanks stances, especially Grit, since they could have made them more unique.

I think the problem is that they want to create many many jobs. You can't really tank or heal with many different ways, so why not keep those roles with only a few jobs ? And give them different builds to steel cater to different type of players (No one complains that two builds of the same job have the same skills at the core...)

[Duelle]

Actually, no, it doesn't. The problem is not with the existence of Hallowed Ground, but in the raid design to make HG mandatory. For example, in A1S, you have to use HG on one of the Plasma because you other skills would all be on CD. While DRK and WAR could keep Holmgang and LD safe for when things go really sour.

The fact Holmgang and Living Dead scrape the bottom of the barrel design and concept-wise supports my point of Hallowed Ground creating a problem, specially since the devs seem to agree with me on the fact that Hallowed Ground existing = every tank has to have a copy of it to be complete.

If you de-emphasize Hallowed Ground it becomes a get out of jail free card for PLD (moreso if you replace Living Dead with something else and remove Holmgang's invincibility), and that may mean a considerable advantage depending on the setting.

As a sidenote, in FFXI, PLD was the only tank to have an Invincible buff, yet it was frequently the less prefered tank.

You forget that the reason for that was NIN's ability to hold aggro and take no damage for prolonged amounts of time, far longer than Invincible's duration with a fraction of the cooldown timer.

I think the problem is that they want to create many many jobs. You can't really tank or heal with many different ways, so why not keep those roles with only a few jobs ? And give them different builds to steel cater to different type of players (No one complains that two builds of the same job have the same skills at the core...)

Considering builds are prone to one build ruling them all on top of this game's lacking variety (I want my DPS Red Mage that dresses like a french musketeer and sets their sword on fire), limiting the number of jobs is the last thing I want to see happen.

Tank and heal approaches are a combination of styles (AKA gameplay) and the mechanics behind the gameplay. I'll shoot off my usual list to illustrate my point. (NOTE: Not all of these are representations of how the jobs are currently designed, but I'm giving you possible concepts these jobs could be designed around to give them their own identity without being on different star systems performance-wise)

PLD: Straightforward tank with a shield and defensive cooldowns.
WAR: Builds wrath and spends it to mitigate or deal damage.
DRK: Drains HP from enemies with a focus on parries and reducing damage received.
BST: Relies on a high HP pool and high defense rating (because it combines the stats of the master and their pet) with a slight advantage in AoE damage (specially if said pet is big like a bear).
DNC: Mitigates damage taken by grazing hits and has a slight advantage in dodging attacks.

WHM: Direct heals, with healing cooldowns and some HoTs to supplement.
SCH: Focus on barriers and secondary healing via their fairy.
AST: Focus on HoTs and some direct heals.
CHM: Focus on heals that react to one another and heals that react to the target ally taking damage.
MYS: Some direct heals, some HoTs, delays damage received by target allies as well as converting some of the damage taken to HP for that ally.

Sure, you could boil all of these down to 2 or 3 jobs, but the thing is that not everyone wants tank as a dude in heavy armor. Likewise, not everyone wants to heal as a guy in a dress. We had someone on these forums not long ago asking for a more rugged style of healer because they weren't digging sparkly lights restoring HP. It may not seem important, but it's very damn important.

[Reynhart]

The fact Holmgang and Living Dead scrape the bottom of the barrel design and concept-wise supports my point of Hallowed Ground creating a problem, specially since the devs seem to agree with me on the fact that Hallowed Ground existing = every tank has to have a copy of it to be complete.

You didn't make strat based around Holmgang or HG before Final Coil. The shift in design transformed them from "Oh!Shit" skill to "another mitigation CD" in your rotation.

You forget that the reason for that was NIN's ability to hold aggro and take no damage for prolonged amounts of time, far longer than Invincible's duration with a fraction of the cooldown timer.

NIN didn't have anything native to hold aggro for years, relying only on /WAR. And Utsusemi was not that game breaking, considering you could use it also as /NIN. What set NIN appart from PLD was that it does more damage. Sounds familiar, right ?

Considering builds are prone to one build ruling them all

People always say that...but you know you can make different builds without one being always better than the other ?

PLD: Straightforward tank with a shield and defensive cooldowns.
WAR: Builds wrath and spends it to mitigate or deal damage.
DRK: Drains HP from enemies with a focus on parries and reducing damage received.
BST: Relies on a high HP pool and high defense rating

WAR is already a tank that relies on high HP pool and high defense rating. In fact, some expert WAR on this forum would gladly say that Inner Beast is a waste of stacks.

As for PLD and DRK, passive parry and block are the same gameplay wise. And "reducing damage received" is the same as "defensive cooldowns".

[Duelle]

You didn't make strat based around Holmgang or HG before Final Coil. The shift in design transformed them from "Oh!Shit" skill to "another mitigation CD" in your rotation.

Which in essence makes it pointless to have an invincibility when a damage mitigation ability with a shorter cooldown would be more beneficial, doesn't it?

NIN didn't have anything native to hold aggro for years, relying only on /WAR. And Utsusemi was not that game breaking, considering you could use it also as /NIN.

When an ability turns fight design on its head, there's something horribly wrong and would normally be dealt with.

What set NIN apart from PLD was that it does more damage. Sounds familiar, right?

That's largely because NIN was designed to be a melee DPS/debuffer, but the importance of Utsusemi as used by players threw the intended design out the window.

WAR is already a tank that relies on high HP pool and high defense rating.

WAR doesn't become a squishy DRG/MNK-level melee when out of tank stance. WAR also doesn't have their choice of a pet to bring to dungeons and raids.

In fact, some expert WAR on this forum would gladly say that Inner Beast is a waste of stacks.

I won't get into it here, but suffice to say that this underscores the problems with how WAR is designed.

As for PLD and DRK, passive parry and block are the same gameplay wise. And "reducing damage received" is the same as "defensive cooldowns".

Not necessarily. One idea I had was DRK creating a damage-absorbing barrier when using Soul Eater while in Grit, and draining HP when out of Grit. Another idea was a skill called Dread Spike that would negate the next incoming attack and restore a portion of your HP (basically what Aegis Boon from 1.0 used to be).