Yoshi-P on Character Growth

[Velhart]

Would it be crazy if I said Yoshi-P was right on this particular subject?

Why not come up with ways to make the game more fun and engaging while not steering away from the core aspects of the game? We don't need elemental wheels, we don't need to a piece of content for over a year to get one pair of gloves.

I won't lie, I would like to see the game get spiced up more, but we do not need to drastically alter the game to make it happen. There are ways to make changes that does not tear down the foundation of the game.

After seeing some amazing things WoW: Legion has done, I would definitely like to see ideas from here make it's way to FFXIV.

[Kaurie]

Would it be crazy if I said Yoshi-P was right on this particular subject?

Why not come up with ways to make the game more fun and engaging while not steering away from the core aspects of the game? We don't need elemental wheels, we don't need to a piece of content for over a year to get one pair of gloves.

I won't lie, I would like to see the game get spiced up more, but we do not need to drastically alter the game to make it happen. There are ways to make changes that does not tear down the foundation of the game.

After seeing some amazing things WoW: Legion has done, I would definitely like to see ideas from here make it's way to FFXIV.

The reason why he is wrong is because he equates "Character progression past 50" with "elemental wheels" or gloves that take a year to obtain, when there are a plethora of other viable ways to implement this that would be more fun and less of a balance headache.

Horrible analogy is horrible. "Hey Yoshi, we were wondering if we were getting vegetables with our dinner?" A:"Well we don't like Brussel sprouts, so no." OK?


@Bourne_Endeavour I only skimmed your arguments the past few pages, but you're clearly missing out on a lot of the reason for this sort of system. There are thousands of players who may have fun in this sort of system, that is "the point" that you asked once or twice. Further, you say it is meaningless out of difficult content because it is faceroll. This statement makes several incorrect assumptions, 1. that there is only extremely difficult and extremely faceroll content. 2. You're making the broad statement that all non top-tier content is meaningless. In which case, the current state of the game is designed horribly, and I am unsure why you play? 3. If you feel that the optimal builds are the only ones that should be in the game, how can you support having as many jobs that we have, or secondary stats? It just sounds like you're playing the wrong genre, tbh.

I am not denying it may be fun to mess around with odd or downright silly combinations, but the developers have to consider the overall impact it will have on the game. Compare it to our rotation. How often does your typical duty finder player follow it? That information tells me those same players are liable to ignore character stat or ability customization for the same reason they do not bother improving their rotation. Content outside progression is simply too easy, thus there is little encouragement to experiment even if the tools were added. I would rather see changes done to make what we already have better balanced and less mindless before anything else. Bonuses are essentially numbers. If say, one gear set gave a TP bonus while one gave a damage buff. The latter is generally better because proper TP management means you'll be fine. Think of it like AST's cards. Balance is more or less the only card you really care about because it's just flat out better. Unless you're bored and feel like making your Dragoon or Monk cry.

I know I already responded to you, but then I read this and thought of an adequate example. You mention queueing into expert with people who are not great at their rotations, but perhaps it's that the rotations are a bit too cumbersome for them, or that they do not find them enjoyable. A talent system could allow for them to improve their DPS from what you are seeing, by taking more passive talents that improve DPS and removing cumbersome/difficult ones. They may not have top tier DPS, but they'd have better than they do now. For example, a black mage may take a talent which replaces ley lines or enochian with a passive buff that improves spell speed or damage. Their ceiling isn't as high, but their floor is higher.

[Velhart]

The reason why he is wrong is because he equates "Character progression past 50" with "elemental wheels" or gloves that take a year to obtain, when there are a plethora of other viable ways to implement this that would be more fun and less of a balance headache.

Horrible analogy is horrible. "Hey Yoshi, we were wondering if we were getting vegetables with our dinner?" A:"Well we don't like Brussel sprouts, so no." OK?

Those were examples to his overall point that tearing down the well established foundation of the game to just to add features like this won't just simply make everything better and can actually make them worse.

Let me ask, why does character growth have to be a thing? I've heard all the "it worked in FFXI" and "sense of accomplishment" arguments, but people do not account for newer players jumping into the game. FFXI was enough indication that if you wanted to play and be serious in the game, you had to do a lot to catch up to the serious end game scene. You really are asking for a niche market with a strict character growth formula.

Again, SE would benefit from copying Blizzard on WoW: Legion. Blizzard really is doing a great job moving forward in progression with the MMO scene, even copying some off FFXIV. Needs to be a Coke ~ Pepsi thing going on. Pepsi: See what Coke is doing. Coke: See what Pepsi is doing. If 3.4 wasn't a thing I would be playing it.

[Kaurie]

Those were examples to his overall point that tearing down the well established foundation of the game to just to add features like this won't just simply make everything better and can actually make them worse.

Let me ask, why does character growth have to be a thing? I've heard all the "it worked in FFXI" and "sense of accomplishment" arguments, but people do not account for newer players jumping into the game. FFXI was enough indication that if you wanted to play and be serious in the game, you had to do a lot to catch up to the serious end game scene. You really are asking for a niche market with a strict character growth formula.

Again, SE would benefit from copying Blizzard on WoW: Legion. Blizzard really is doing a great job moving forward in progression with the MMO scene, even copying some off FFXIV. Needs to be a Coke ~ Pepsi thing going on. Pepsi: See what Coke is doing. Coke: See what Pepsi is doing. If 3.4 wasn't a thing I would be playing it.

It doesn't have to be a thing, it is just more enjoyable if it is. Personally, I do not have fun unless my character progresses in some fashion. I think adding more choice allows for more diverse playstyle where you can play around with different things and lets you find something that works best for you, rather than what the devs decided works best for you.

FFXI, unfortunately, is a game that know very little about. I never played it, I've never googled it and I only even know of it's existence because of this forum. That said, I've seen on-going progression systems in other MMO's that are fun, and I'd love FFXIV to explore it. What I do gather from FFXI is that it is not at all what I want, and what I think of when I say horizontal progression or post-max-level progression. I'd rather systems similar to WoW and Guild Wars 2.

I completely agree about Legion. Artifacts are a great example of on-going progression after max level. Even if I don't have much to do, I can log in and do a few world quests (also a great thing, wish FFXIV had better open-world stuff like these) and grab some artifact power. Currently, I am playing both FFXIV and Legion, with about 6 hours per week going to FFXIV and 40ish hours going to Legion.

[Velhart]

It doesn't have to be a thing, it is just more enjoyable if it is. Personally, I do not have fun unless my character progresses in some fashion. I think adding more choice allows for more diverse playstyle where you can play around with different things and lets you find something that works best for you, rather than what the devs decided works best for you.

FFXI, unfortunately, is a game that know very little about. I never played it, I've never googled it and I only even know of it's existence because of this forum. That said, I've seen on-going progression systems in other MMO's that are fun, and I'd love FFXIV to explore it. What I do gather from FFXI is that it is not at all what I want, and what I think of when I say horizontal progression or post-max-level progression. I'd rather systems similar to WoW and Guild Wars 2.

I completely agree about Legion. Artifacts are a great example of on-going progression after max level. Even if I don't have much to do, I can log in and do a few world quests (also a great thing, wish FFXIV had better open-world stuff like these) and grab some artifact power. Currently, I am playing both FFXIV and Legion, with about 6 hours per week going to FFXIV and 40ish hours going to Legion.

Let me rephrase what I said. I think character growth does not work in FFXI's formula. It could with WoW's, but would come with it's own hardships. It's artifact system is brilliant, but can work against the armory system because WoW has a one class per character rule, FFXIV doesn't. It's world quests and clever quest level sync system would work great for FFXIV if built from the ground up right in an expansion.

[Kaurie]

Let me rephrase what I said. I think character growth does not work in FFXI's formula. It could with WoW's, but would come with it's own hardships. It's artifact system is brilliant, but can work against the armory system because WoW has a one class per character rule, FFXIV doesn't. It's world quests and clever quest level sync system would work great for FFXIV if built from the ground up right in an expansion.

Yeah, I completely agree. I think FFXIV needs to design systems that work with what they have now. The issue is, it sounds like Yoshi is saying that they are not going to design systems to work with what they have, because systems that don't work with what they have won't work.

Not meaningless. Easy. The two are synonymous,

You immediately contradicted yourself, saying it's not meaningless, but it's a word synonymous with meaningless? Either way, easy is not synonymous with meaningless.

What I'm saying is skill tress aren't going to have a significant impact when a bear bones rotation will clear it no problem. A system needs weight; a sense you're accomplishing something. If I can spec Dragoon fifty different ways yet nothing changes due to the content not posing enough of a threat to warrant that versatility, it lacks impact.

This makes the presumption that clearing content is more important than enjoying the experience. While I agree clearing content is important, it lacks all importance if the experience is not fun.

but that people will gravitate towards what is deemed best.

This is very true, look at Icy-veins on WoW. That said, I made an example how I use a sub-optimal talent set up on my mage, so that I enjoy the game more. When I got my mage to 110, I used icy veins build to make it the best. I hated it and stopped playing it. I then went back, re-did my talents, and am loving the job. My DPS is still adequate and I'm often top DPS in my Mythic Dungeon runs etc. I may not be Mythic Raid ready, but I am having fun while I play, and that is what is important.

Jobs differ because they play differently. A Ninja and Dragoon will have two different roles, and will play differently as a result. Skill trees aren't going to change Dragoon into a support DPS or tank. If they did, we might as well remove jobs entirely and just have skill tree define what people play. FFXIV just isn't designed to be that type of game.

The thing is, small changes to skills can make the class play more fluidly for you. For example, I want to play a Black Mage, I had a lot of fun with it in 2.x. However, I hate enochian and ley lines. I could talent away into something that plays a little bit more fun, so that I can enjoy BLM. It won't be my raid job (SMN), but I could play it in expert roulette and extreme primals for fun.

As for secondary stats. I, honestly, pay little attention to them except to make the Crit-det joke.

I am not sure what joke you mean? That said, how can you be so adamant that everything must be fine tuned to min-max or it is meaningless, and then not pay attention to secondary stats?

In theory. Except if that same skill tree offered a straight damage buff as a potential path. They're right back where they started because the better players chose the direct buff and outpace them all over again.Furthermore, if they do want to attempt harder content, they will gradually need to learn a proper rotation as FFXIV is designed around that philosophy. I suspect this is why Yoshi wants to simplify rotations. Blade & Soul has a skill tree system and people mostly followed the same few builds once the top tier players ironed out guides. There were some variations along the way, but not many.

That is the point though, there are a few things here. First, the better players will master the optimal set up, but that set up may be too much for some who just want to run expert or be out in the open world. This could improve their performance and enjoyability of the game. Second, providing a more fluid gameplay can be like training wheels. That is, that black mage could learn their rotation without leylines, and then talent in ley lines in later - and can master that while already being comfortable with everything else.

[Velhart]

Yeah, I completely agree. I think FFXIV needs to design systems that work with what they have now. The issue is, it sounds like Yoshi is saying that they are not going to design systems to work with what they have, because systems that don't work with what they have won't work.

In FFXIV's case, I would guess it is a resources issue in terms of going all out on new features. Blizzard has the funds and manpower to do a lot of wheel changing.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

You immediately contradicted yourself, saying it's not meaningless, but it's a word synonymous with meaningless? Either way, easy is not synonymous with meaningless.

Evidently, I need another cup of coffee. I meant to say aren't synonymous. lol

This makes the presumption that clearing content is more important than enjoying the experience. While I agree clearing content is important, it lacks all importance if the experience is not fun.

Not necessarily. You also presume people will have more fun adjust their character builds. And that this novelty will not inevitably wear thin when content itself doesn't provide an impact. If I adjust my character to play a certain way, I want to notice those changes. Dungeons and whatnot wouldn't allow for that because they lack any demand. To give a recent example. I swapped a piece of gear while running Nidhogg EX and immediately noticed my DPS jump up. Skill trees need an equivalent feeling or what purpose to they serve? Okay, it might fun to mess around with silly combinations. But the developers can't build a system around a potential novelty.

For what it's worth, I actually find dungeons fun, even if they are easy. I just really wish they would drop Expert Roulette. Two dungeons gets boring after a while.

This is very true, look at Icy-veins on WoW. That said, I made an example how I use a sub-optimal talent set up on my mage, so that I enjoy the game more. When I got my mage to 110, I used icy veins build to make it the best. I hated it and stopped playing it. I then went back, re-did my talents, and am loving the job. My DPS is still adequate and I'm often top DPS in my Mythic Dungeon runs etc. I may not be Mythic Raid ready, but I am having fun while I play, and that is what is important.

I don't know WoW enough to compare in detail, but Mythic Dungeons are considered challenging, yes? This is where I feel FFXIV could improve on. That immediate impact is likely why you loved it. Unfortunately, you generally wouldn't notice that change outside of raid in XIV due to its ease. Velhart also made a good point in that WoW only allows for one class per character. FFXIV attempts flexibility by encouraging you to play a different class entirely if you've not happy with how one progresses.

But I suspect Yoshi is hesitant of skill trees because of people's tendency to follow the leader, so to speak.

The thing is, small changes to skills can make the class play more fluidly for you. For example, I want to play a Black Mage, I had a lot of fun with it in 2.x. However, I hate enochian and ley lines. I could talent away into something that plays a little bit more fun, so that I can enjoy BLM. It won't be my raid job (SMN), but I could play it in expert roulette and extreme primals for fun.

Fair enough. Blood of the Dragoon annoys me to no end at times. That being said, from a developer perspective, they have to weigh in whether a system like that would impact the game enough to be worthwhile. I'm not so certain it would be. Personally? I would like them to focus more on the content itself; expanding the raids; making more dungeons like Weeping City, because I think once the novelty wears off, people who were bored before will still be bored again.

I am not sure what joke you mean? That said, how can you be so adamant that everything must be fine tuned to min-max or it is meaningless, and then not pay attention to secondary stats?

Because Crit and Det are basically the go to melds for most jobs, MrHappy started saying to anyone who asked what they should meld if they "checked their Crit-det Report." I am not adamant about it, personally. I'm just acknowledging what people usually do. And I was just being facetious since secondary stats pretty much boil down to Crit over Det with some occasional ACC.

That is the point though, there are a few things here. First, the better players will master the optimal set up, but that set up may be too much for some who just want to run expert or be out in the open world. This could improve their performance and enjoyability of the game. Second, providing a more fluid gameplay can be like training wheels. That is, that black mage could learn their rotation without leylines, and then talent in ley lines in later - and can master that while already being comfortable with everything else.

But that setup isn't remotely required in expert or open world content. That has been my whole point. You don't need to follow any rotation outside progression, hence why I don't see a skill tree system having any impact. You could queue into Hullbreaker Hard, never once touch Enochian and do just fine. Once you did want to learn the Black Mage rotation, you'd be largely starting over because of how FFXIV's current abilities are designed. I just don't see it being as helpful as you're making it out to be.

And to be honest, I would have preferred that answer. Instead of making up some exaggerated example, he could have said,

"You know, we'd love to explore something like this. That said, we have a small development team and we are at our limits to keep what we are putting out balanced and fun. We are not confident we could invent or implement such a new system with the resources available."

That said, I think that they have systems in place and resources available to address this. They keep on making overly-complicated systems for things like Aquariums (just make a basic aquarium, the amount of extra junk that went into something so trivial is insane). Move those resources into something like this, and then use the features already in the game to do it (Cross class skills, Classes to Jobs, Materia etc.).

In Yoshi's defense, I imagine Square Enix wouldn't be overly keen about him being that direct. After all, it's basically him saying they're too cheap.

I do kind of agree with you here though. They do like making overly elaborate fluff content (we're all looking at you Lord of Verminion.)

[Seiryuukishi]

The thing is, small changes to skills can make the class play more fluidly for you. For example, I want to play a Black Mage, I had a lot of fun with it in 2.x. However, I hate enochian and ley lines. I could talent away into something that plays a little bit more fun, so that I can enjoy BLM. It won't be my raid job (SMN), but I could play it in expert roulette and extreme primals for fun.

Okay, I get how toggle skills can be annoying. The way I approached Black Mage when I leveled it to 60 was this(for the funsies ;P). I grabbed the gear I had for it and went straight for the highest dungeon I had access to. I knew Ley Lines increased spell speed and knew Enochian was required for Blizzard IV's use so by extension Fire IV's too. I read no guide nor watched one and asked no advice. I did four dungeons until "I" thought I had it worked out then asked. Turns out I was right about the rotation and guess what? Learning it was the fun part

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Let me rephrase what I said. I think character growth does not work in FFXI's formula. It could with WoW's, but would come with it's own hardships. It's artifact system is brilliant, but can work against the armory system because WoW has a one class per character rule, FFXIV doesn't. It's world quests and clever quest level sync system would work great for FFXIV if built from the ground up right in an expansion.

One idea I had along those lines would be to allow players to choose the difficulty of content in premade groups. Instead of having to reequip old gear to attempt fights at their relevant ilvl, you could adjust a slider to properly scale you down (none of this 240 still being massively better than 210). The devs could then build achievements around clearing content at a more challenging level or even have the Primal mounts' drop rate be influenced by your ilvl.