Yoshi-P on Character Growth

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Lord Of Verminion and Diadem are so much more useful to this game, sure

Apples and oranges. Overhauling the entire character progression system is a far more significant undertaking than LoV or Diadem. And if it flopped like those did. Congratulations, you just ruined your expansion.

I won't level another job to please you, whatever you think of it. Besides, what people requires from jobs is waaaay before you even see people actually play, so it's stupid.

Did I ever say that? Please don't put words in my mouth. I said if you willfully chose a character build that proved inferior, and it held us back. I would ask you to change because there are seven other players who want to progress and "I like this better" isn't a good reason. Character builds are not comparable to whole Jobs.

Calling "outliners" teams that cleared Gordias 1 after a week and as server first is really funny.

Sigh. Let's say, 100 groups cleared Gordias. If 80% used WAR/DRK, then PLD is the outliner regardless of when those groups cleared. Regardless, you can point to first week clears all you fancy. The community didn't bring PLD nearly as often. A similar occurrence happened with AST, hence why Square basically buffed them through the moon. They wouldn't do that if people were using AST more.

No, the few elite teams end with something that works for them, and all the following wanabee copies them without understanding their real status on progression.

... you essentially just proved my point. Even if this were entirely correct. That still demonstrates favoritism towards what is deemed better. You keep glossing over or straight up ignoring my references to other games, where this exact thing happens. People tend to gravitate to optimized builds, especially with how prolific guide makers are now. You can complain about it, however the devs have to consider if implementing such a system would actually be beneficial.

[Velhart]

Would it be crazy if I said Yoshi-P was right on this particular subject?

Why not come up with ways to make the game more fun and engaging while not steering away from the core aspects of the game? We don't need elemental wheels, we don't need to a piece of content for over a year to get one pair of gloves.

I won't lie, I would like to see the game get spiced up more, but we do not need to drastically alter the game to make it happen. There are ways to make changes that does not tear down the foundation of the game.

After seeing some amazing things WoW: Legion has done, I would definitely like to see ideas from here make it's way to FFXIV.

[Balipu]

Apples and oranges. Overhauling the entire character progression system is a far more significant undertaking than LoV or Diadem. And if it flopped like those did. Congratulations, you just ruined your expansion.



if you willfully chose a character build that proved inferior, and it held us back. I would ask you to change because there are seven other players who want to progress and "I like this better" isn't a good reason..



Sigh. Let's say, 100 groups cleared Gordias. If 80% used WAR/DRK, then PLD is the outliner regardless of when those groups cleared. No need to remove the current one. Second: It might be bigger than LoV or Diadem, but it might not be bigger than Lov AND Diadem.
No need to remove the current one.



You can complain about it, however the devs have to consider if implementing such a system would actually be beneficial.

1. Well, first: builds don't have to overhaul character progression. It can just be a bonus system added to what we already have. Second: It might be bigger than LoV or Diadem, but it might not be bigger than Lov AND Diadem.

2. It won't hold YOU back, because he isn't interested in doing content with you. You will use the optimal builds for savage raiding with your static and he will use his build for anything else. And so will I. If we get builds, I will figure out the craziest combination and use it for fun. I know my limits. I will never be able to clear a savage raid boss. So I don't give a damn about optimizing myself for raiding.

3. But time really does matter. There's a reason the same people tend to do server first and world first clears. They are the best. So player skill is still the most important. But this still assumes that people who pick sub optimal builds for fun are all interested in raiding. No reason to assume that is the case.

4. Beneficial to whom? Maybe not everyone, but there are various different kinds of players. Also we are still assuming that a player would be locked into one build. Even if there is an optimal build, we can maybe have a solo build a pvp build and a pve build to switch around. And a fourth that focuses on sylph magic and goblin tech for the lulz.

[bass9020]

And.....-_- you just did.....

I was making a joke. Of course I'm going to keep saying things when I feel like it........

[Bourne_Endeavor]

snip

I am not denying it may be fun to mess around with odd or downright silly combinations, but the developers have to consider the overall impact it will have on the game. Compare it to our rotation. How often does your typical duty finder player follow it? That information tells me those same players are liable to ignore character stat or ability customization for the same reason they do not bother improving their rotation. Content outside progression is simply too easy, thus there is little encouragement to experiment even if the tools were added. I would rather see changes done to make what we already have better balanced and less mindless before anything else. Bonuses are essentially numbers. If say, one gear set gave a TP bonus while one gave a damage buff. The latter is generally better because proper TP management means you'll be fine. Think of it like AST's cards. Balance is more or less the only card you really care about because it's just flat out better. Unless you're bored and feel like making your Dragoon or Monk cry.

[Kaurie]

Would it be crazy if I said Yoshi-P was right on this particular subject?

Why not come up with ways to make the game more fun and engaging while not steering away from the core aspects of the game? We don't need elemental wheels, we don't need to a piece of content for over a year to get one pair of gloves.

I won't lie, I would like to see the game get spiced up more, but we do not need to drastically alter the game to make it happen. There are ways to make changes that does not tear down the foundation of the game.

After seeing some amazing things WoW: Legion has done, I would definitely like to see ideas from here make it's way to FFXIV.

The reason why he is wrong is because he equates "Character progression past 50" with "elemental wheels" or gloves that take a year to obtain, when there are a plethora of other viable ways to implement this that would be more fun and less of a balance headache.

Horrible analogy is horrible. "Hey Yoshi, we were wondering if we were getting vegetables with our dinner?" A:"Well we don't like Brussel sprouts, so no." OK?


@Bourne_Endeavour I only skimmed your arguments the past few pages, but you're clearly missing out on a lot of the reason for this sort of system. There are thousands of players who may have fun in this sort of system, that is "the point" that you asked once or twice. Further, you say it is meaningless out of difficult content because it is faceroll. This statement makes several incorrect assumptions, 1. that there is only extremely difficult and extremely faceroll content. 2. You're making the broad statement that all non top-tier content is meaningless. In which case, the current state of the game is designed horribly, and I am unsure why you play? 3. If you feel that the optimal builds are the only ones that should be in the game, how can you support having as many jobs that we have, or secondary stats? It just sounds like you're playing the wrong genre, tbh.

I am not denying it may be fun to mess around with odd or downright silly combinations, but the developers have to consider the overall impact it will have on the game. Compare it to our rotation. How often does your typical duty finder player follow it? That information tells me those same players are liable to ignore character stat or ability customization for the same reason they do not bother improving their rotation. Content outside progression is simply too easy, thus there is little encouragement to experiment even if the tools were added. I would rather see changes done to make what we already have better balanced and less mindless before anything else. Bonuses are essentially numbers. If say, one gear set gave a TP bonus while one gave a damage buff. The latter is generally better because proper TP management means you'll be fine. Think of it like AST's cards. Balance is more or less the only card you really care about because it's just flat out better. Unless you're bored and feel like making your Dragoon or Monk cry.

I know I already responded to you, but then I read this and thought of an adequate example. You mention queueing into expert with people who are not great at their rotations, but perhaps it's that the rotations are a bit too cumbersome for them, or that they do not find them enjoyable. A talent system could allow for them to improve their DPS from what you are seeing, by taking more passive talents that improve DPS and removing cumbersome/difficult ones. They may not have top tier DPS, but they'd have better than they do now. For example, a black mage may take a talent which replaces ley lines or enochian with a passive buff that improves spell speed or damage. Their ceiling isn't as high, but their floor is higher.

[Velhart]

The reason why he is wrong is because he equates "Character progression past 50" with "elemental wheels" or gloves that take a year to obtain, when there are a plethora of other viable ways to implement this that would be more fun and less of a balance headache.

Horrible analogy is horrible. "Hey Yoshi, we were wondering if we were getting vegetables with our dinner?" A:"Well we don't like Brussel sprouts, so no." OK?

Those were examples to his overall point that tearing down the well established foundation of the game to just to add features like this won't just simply make everything better and can actually make them worse.

Let me ask, why does character growth have to be a thing? I've heard all the "it worked in FFXI" and "sense of accomplishment" arguments, but people do not account for newer players jumping into the game. FFXI was enough indication that if you wanted to play and be serious in the game, you had to do a lot to catch up to the serious end game scene. You really are asking for a niche market with a strict character growth formula.

Again, SE would benefit from copying Blizzard on WoW: Legion. Blizzard really is doing a great job moving forward in progression with the MMO scene, even copying some off FFXIV. Needs to be a Coke ~ Pepsi thing going on. Pepsi: See what Coke is doing. Coke: See what Pepsi is doing. If 3.4 wasn't a thing I would be playing it.

[Kaurie]

Those were examples to his overall point that tearing down the well established foundation of the game to just to add features like this won't just simply make everything better and can actually make them worse.

Let me ask, why does character growth have to be a thing? I've heard all the "it worked in FFXI" and "sense of accomplishment" arguments, but people do not account for newer players jumping into the game. FFXI was enough indication that if you wanted to play and be serious in the game, you had to do a lot to catch up to the serious end game scene. You really are asking for a niche market with a strict character growth formula.

Again, SE would benefit from copying Blizzard on WoW: Legion. Blizzard really is doing a great job moving forward in progression with the MMO scene, even copying some off FFXIV. Needs to be a Coke ~ Pepsi thing going on. Pepsi: See what Coke is doing. Coke: See what Pepsi is doing. If 3.4 wasn't a thing I would be playing it.

It doesn't have to be a thing, it is just more enjoyable if it is. Personally, I do not have fun unless my character progresses in some fashion. I think adding more choice allows for more diverse playstyle where you can play around with different things and lets you find something that works best for you, rather than what the devs decided works best for you.

FFXI, unfortunately, is a game that know very little about. I never played it, I've never googled it and I only even know of it's existence because of this forum. That said, I've seen on-going progression systems in other MMO's that are fun, and I'd love FFXIV to explore it. What I do gather from FFXI is that it is not at all what I want, and what I think of when I say horizontal progression or post-max-level progression. I'd rather systems similar to WoW and Guild Wars 2.

I completely agree about Legion. Artifacts are a great example of on-going progression after max level. Even if I don't have much to do, I can log in and do a few world quests (also a great thing, wish FFXIV had better open-world stuff like these) and grab some artifact power. Currently, I am playing both FFXIV and Legion, with about 6 hours per week going to FFXIV and 40ish hours going to Legion.

[Velhart]

It doesn't have to be a thing, it is just more enjoyable if it is. Personally, I do not have fun unless my character progresses in some fashion. I think adding more choice allows for more diverse playstyle where you can play around with different things and lets you find something that works best for you, rather than what the devs decided works best for you.

FFXI, unfortunately, is a game that know very little about. I never played it, I've never googled it and I only even know of it's existence because of this forum. That said, I've seen on-going progression systems in other MMO's that are fun, and I'd love FFXIV to explore it. What I do gather from FFXI is that it is not at all what I want, and what I think of when I say horizontal progression or post-max-level progression. I'd rather systems similar to WoW and Guild Wars 2.

I completely agree about Legion. Artifacts are a great example of on-going progression after max level. Even if I don't have much to do, I can log in and do a few world quests (also a great thing, wish FFXIV had better open-world stuff like these) and grab some artifact power. Currently, I am playing both FFXIV and Legion, with about 6 hours per week going to FFXIV and 40ish hours going to Legion.

Let me rephrase what I said. I think character growth does not work in FFXI's formula. It could with WoW's, but would come with it's own hardships. It's artifact system is brilliant, but can work against the armory system because WoW has a one class per character rule, FFXIV doesn't. It's world quests and clever quest level sync system would work great for FFXIV if built from the ground up right in an expansion.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

@Bourne_Endeavour I only skimmed your arguments the past few pages, but you're clearly missing out on a lot of the reason for this sort of system. There are thousands of players who may have fun in this sort of system, that is "the point" that you asked once or twice. Further, you say it is meaningless out of difficult content because it is faceroll. This statement makes several incorrect assumptions, 1. that there is only extremely difficult and extremely faceroll content. 2. You're making the broad statement that all non top-tier content is meaningless. In which case, the current state of the game is designed horribly, and I am unsure why you play? 3. If you feel that the optimal builds are the only ones that should be in the game, how can you support having as many jobs that we have, or secondary stats? It just sounds like you're playing the wrong genre, tbh.

Not meaningless. Easy. The two are synonymous, especially as we're required to run content to progress. What I'm saying is skill tress aren't going to have a significant impact when a bear bones rotation will clear it no problem. A system needs weight; a sense you're accomplishing something. If I can spec Dragoon fifty different ways yet nothing changes due to the content not posing enough of a threat to warrant that versatility, it lacks impact. Thus, I have no reason to change my character build. And on that not, I didn't say should be the only ones, but that people will gravitate towards what is deemed best. STR tanks are a prime example of a niche eventually cannibalizing the other side until Square adjusted the whole system. Jobs differ because they play differently. A Ninja and Dragoon will have two different roles, and will play differently as a result. Skill trees aren't going to change Dragoon into a support DPS or tank. If they did, we might as well remove jobs entirely and just have skill tree define what people play. FFXIV just isn't designed to be that type of game.

As for secondary stats. I, honestly, pay little attention to them except to make the Crit-det joke.

I know I already responded to you, but then I read this and thought of an adequate example. You mention queueing into expert with people who are not great at their rotations, but perhaps it's that the rotations are a bit too cumbersome for them, or that they do not find them enjoyable. A talent system could allow for them to improve their DPS from what you are seeing, by taking more passive talents that improve DPS and removing cumbersome/difficult ones. They may not have top tier DPS, but they'd have better than they do now. For example, a black mage may take a talent which replaces ley lines or enochian with a passive buff that improves spell speed or damage. Their ceiling isn't as high, but their floor is higher.

In theory. Except if that same skill tree offered a straight damage buff as a potential path. They're right back where they started because the better players chose the direct buff and outpace them all over again.Furthermore, if they do want to attempt harder content, they will gradually need to learn a proper rotation as FFXIV is designed around that philosophy. I suspect this is why Yoshi wants to simplify rotations. Blade & Soul has a skill tree system and people mostly followed the same few builds once the top tier players ironed out guides. There were some variations along the way, but not many.